OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

[WendyWeber]

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

The guardian did not make a mistake.
ALL personnification/pictorial depiction of God and his creatures is forbidden in Islam. That is why islamic art is mainly caligraphy/architecture etc.......No paintings, no sculpture and of course no photography.

Yes it is the dark ages/inquisition.
As I see it Cote d'Azur, renaissance is wishfull thinking right now.

I did not follow the whole story as not in UK, but what is she doing there FGS? Is she a missionary type?
What is the foreign office doing to get here out of that farcical situation (or is she married to a muslim?, in which case she's stuffed, pardon my french).

slim - I am technically Muslim - born to Muslim parents, in a Muslim country, although never believed nor practiced. Fortunately, this was a country where they didn't kill blasphemers, or yours truly would not have lived long enough to correspond with you on MN, but it is a rare Muslim community indeed.

So, trust me, I am quite familiar with what Islam forbids (if only to avoid personal hurt). All depiction of Mohammad is forbidden. He forbid it himself, so that his pictures/sculptures etc would not be worshipped. This is why there are no depictions of Mohammad.

There were and are, however, quite many depictions of other persons in Muslim societies. Drawing yourself or others is not a problem. Example: Miniature art during the Ottoman Empire.

All of this is not relevant to why this woman was arrested in Sudan, though. A teddy bear is not a human figure, let alone that of a man. Ergo, it is not a depiction of Prophet Mohammad. QED.

Muslim Renaissance will come, but it will get worse before it gets better. A lot of blood will be shed before people grow up and decide not to impose their own deities on others. Possibly in our lifetimes, but I will not be holding my breath.

Without a doubt historically the christian faith has had its times of cruelty but that was when the church was used as a way of gaining power & influence.

I cant help wondering if the people stirring problems within the Muslim faith are not doing it for political reasons...certain countries have held a position of power on the world stage because of oil, what happens when that runs out?

Not relevant to this story I know

Cote D'azur, I'm muslim too, born in a muslim country in a muslim family (albeit very liberal).
Miniature art even a few centuries earlier in abbaside califates and mughal India.....but those are long gone enlightened times!

It is forbidden. It may not be the version you and me and other open minded western educated muslims practice/long for but unfortunately nowadays, the Torquemada style version of official islam prevails.

A Teddy bear is not a human figure but as far as I understand, it is a personnification nonetheless and that fits in "their" stange interpretation of blasphemy.

Honestly, the foreign office is not doing anything to get her out?

Islam had its Golden Age from the mid 8th centuary until 13th centuary. That is because the leaders embraced Mohammed's assertion that "the ink of scholars is more precious than the blood of martyrs", something conveniently overlooked by the wannabe jihadi nutters today.

Islamic intellectuals excelled in literature, art, maths (they invented trigonometry), astronomy, chemistry. They even tolerated and respected other religions, more so than Christianity at that time.

Unfortunately, the very things that made the Islamic world successful were also responsible for its downfall. Free thinking intellectuals, who used reason and science, were seen as a threat by the more ardent theologians and consequently, scientific progress came to a halt as education focused more on theological matters and the prescriptive doctrine of Islam took over.

I very much doubt that Islam will ever see another renaissance because its lead proponets are not mature enough or strong enough in their faith to wither any form of criticism. This incident over a teddy bear justs shows how much growing up is needed.

You last sentence, spot on!

I'm sure I will be corrected, but I thought I had heard a Muslim cleric saying that saira (or what ever it's called sory) law, does not apply to non Muslims, and under the Koran they cannot apply it to non Muslims.

I now think I may have dreamt this piece of info, but I'm sure I heard it.

(the rest too btw)

How well-educated is the average Moslem (if there is such a thing) in a country like Sudan? The behaviour of "ordinary" (ie not well-educated) people in an incident like this reminds me horribly of the incident in this country when a paediatrician's house was attacked by "ordinary" people who confused her occupation with the word paedophile......they just go with the mob and don't question what they're told.

I don't see a quick and easy solution to that

The trouble is none of this is about rationalism or sense. Just as with fundamentalist Chrisians, you can throw the facts at people, you can point out that even their own holy book and teachings say that they are wrong, but it's unlikely to help. People use religion as an excuse to persecute and attack and exercise mob rule.

oops, apols for spelling muslim moslem, no idea where that came from!

wendy don't worry about spelling. Don't expect anybody will try and flog you here

You'd be surprised how well educated middle classes are "even" in a country like Sudan. They are just also brain washed to switch to no-brain mode when it comes to religion.

Slim22 "You'd be surprised how well educated middle classes are "even" in a country like Sudan. They are just also brain washed to switch to no-brain mode when it comes to religion."

Ed Hussain illustrated that same point in his book the "The Islamist". Rational, educated intellectals in Saudi Arabia who became aggressive, strident and accusatory when he dared to challenge some of their ill-informed views.

"Also, someone above mentioned morals....morals are different across the world and I don't really think anyone can stand up and say 'our country has better morals than yours'"

QoQ - the someone who mentioned it was me. I know you spent some time in Africa. Those who struggled for western values of democracy and respect for human rights in South Africa and Zimbabwe during the years of white rule might not agree with your statement. I think they were glad to have a continuous barrage of moral condemnation coming from the west.

She has been charged

Good grief

some views from Sudan

Oh, I saw those, Blu - a couple of them want to punish the children. Nice.

But most are agreeing that she is being unreasonably treated,

Of course they should lock up all the 7 year olds, because that is really going to make them love the Prophet, isn't it?

the muslim council of the UK has said that no insult was intended in any way.

I just wish that these extremists (and I do feel that they are often Islamists ie politically motivated than religiously motivated muslims) would realise just how much harm they are doing to the perception of Islam in the world as a large.

Because this has been about as helpful a PR exercise as the extremists rioting to protest about the Pope quoting a 400 cleric who said that Islam was a violent religion. So to protest, they rioted.

How awful for the ordinary, rational muslims.

I notice that one of the charges is "inciting hatred". But hatred of whom or what? And whose hatred? I think those Islamic fundamentalists are talking about nobody's hatred but their own.

as a muslim myself I am ashamed and embaressed. The Qu'ran teaches that all muslims are 'family'. Known as The Ummah. All muslims are our brothers and sisters. Its horrible watching this and then I get attacked verbally as if I'm responsible for what fruitcakes do in another country.

You have my greatest sympathy coffee, you really do.

These people are just so, so stupid. And are doing so much harm to your faith. Given that the Prophet is venerated as a man of compassion, how could real followers of him act in this way?

How peculiar that inciting hatred should be against the law in Sudan.

I would have thought it was obligatory.

If anyone's inciting hatred, it's the authorities. They're certainly inciting hatred of the teacher. And of muslims worldwide, for that matter.