OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

[WendyWeber]

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

QoQ what law did she break?
I can't see she has borken any law.
it is simply ludicrous to define allowing your class to call a teddy bear Mohammed as blasphemy.
utterly nonsensical.

Agree. I would same the same if it was Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism etc. This is 2007 and I'm sure the leaders in Sudan have access to modern technology like mobile phones, cars, etc. So if it is ok to use modern day devices, why on earth can't they update their mediaeval traditions/practises and heaven forbid, actually live by the Koran as its founder intended, i.e with love, respect and humility?

"I disagree with the punishment and think it's awful.. However, it's a law in the country she's living in, why (regardless of our views on the manner of the punishment) should she be released immidiately if she's broken a law of the country in which she's living?"

QoQ, you need to think about that a bit more carefully. You cannot equate the laws of one country with those of another and think that morals don't come into it. In the 1930s it was illegal in Germany for an Aryan to have intercourse with a Jew. How do you like them laws?

Great comment here from a colleague of Ms Gibbons in Khartoum. It details exactly what happened and when.

It could make you cry couldn't it....

So, just in case, the bear had been 'retired' and replaced with another soft toy with a different name before she was arested?

And none of the parents objected.

and the parents were informed by letter before it all started. And all of the children bar one in the calss are muslim.

And the parents want her back.

This is a political issue IMHO, and has bugger all to do with the bear

One of the press reports I've seen (can't remember which) suggests that certain circles would like to close the school down and acquire its site

Political, indeed.

This is bizarre, it's got to be political, I agree.

Another report said it was a disgruntled member of staff (presumably after her job?) & that no-one had complained about the bear & it had been going home with his diary for weeks to muslim AND christian families!!

It was reported externally not from the school or parents.

Presumably if she's been/going to be charged with something then she's broken a law local to where she lives.

Of course many laws around the world are archaic and should be scrapped - however the fact remains that it DOES exist, she's obviously broken it (how it came to light is irrelevant) and shouldn't automatically be exempt from it because she's British.

If foreigners come to the UK and break one of our laws (no matter how spurious it may be) they are expected to be punished in the same way as if some from the UK breaks it.

An example off the top of my head (with baby sat on lap trying to help). Someone from Syria comes to the UK and sleeps with a 13yr old girl. They're arrested and charged....as is the law in this country, but Syria appeals to the UK because the age of consent in Syria for girls is 13 and therefore by Syrian standards hasn't done anything wrong.......

At the end of the day if ANYONE from ANY country moves abroad they should expect to be treated the same as anyone else if they break a local law,

Has she actually broken any law though? This seems to be open to interpretation. There are Sudanese people being quoted as saying that she hasn't (I'll find one in a bit)

I don't know - obviously if the what she is being charged with doesn't exist in the local law book then yes there's an issue and it needs to be sorted out. But I'm afraid I'm still of the opinion that if she HAS broken a local law then she should not be exempt from any punishment because of her nationality.

This issue frequently pops up on the news where a British Citizen has been arrested in a foreign country and almost immediately diplomatic efforts are made to have them released.

There really are some horrendous laws and punishments around the world but if you decide to move to a country where they exist I do think you should have to live with the consequences should you break those laws and not rely on help from diplomats to be released.

Also, someone above mentioned morals....morals are different across the world and I don't really think anyone can stand up and say "our country has better morals than yours".

There was a case where a British man had 50 lashes for breaking anti-alcohol laws in (I think) Saudi. I presume the view of the British diplomats was that it was a fair cop.

Most of the time when diplomats do get involved I think it is because there is suspicion that it's not a fair trial, or they've been set up.

sounding hopeful, anyway

The wording of the law is something about making images of the prophet. The teddybear was named by children after another child and the prophet had nothing to do with it. That's where interpretation comes in (unlike someone having sex with a 13-yr-old)

When concerns about the name were raised in the school (several weeks after the bear started going to children's homes) the Muhammad bear was retired and another used instead. The evidence for the alleged offence appears to be the diary - a book with a photo of the teddy on the front and "My name is Muhammad". Pity that wasn't destroyed when the bear was retired

I've seen another report this morning though Blu - it says she has been moved to a different jail and that Embassy officials weren't allowed to visit her there.

What a brave child, saying it was his idea.

Here

This is from the Telegraph:

You would think the Ministry of Religious Affairs would have been consulted over a religious offence, wouldn't you?

Marina regarding your point "In many countries it is considered respectful to call boys Jesus, but possibly not a toy. Big difference is that this would not be news because IMO in the Western-dominated world media..."

No the big difference is on the whole christians would not flog someone for calling a toy Jesus.

Wendy, the Guardian has made a mistake there. It is not "depiction of Prophet Mohammad" that is the issue here, obviously, as we are talking about a bear, not a human figure.

I doubt if there is a law in Sudan that says "don't ever name an animal after the Prophet", but then again, as with many other cultural taboos, it probably is not necessary to the people living there.

All our aversion aside, people in some parts of the world have very different customs to ours and anyone living in such places has to be very careful about avoiding sensitive subjects. We can have a go at them here all we want, shout from rooftops how superior we are and all that, but at the end of the day, it is their country, their rules.

I was born in one of the few secular Muslim countries in the world, but I have never visited a non-secular Muslim country. Why do you think that is? Life is dangerous for a woman in most of them.

In the annals of history, this will be known as Teddygate and people will look back and think, "was that for real?"

contentiouscat - Yes, Christians would not be flogged for disrespecting Jesus Christ at this day and age, although they would no doubt be tortured and then burnt alive until about 300 years ago. Then came the enlightenment, Renaissance, etc and now such 'blasphemers' will be cast an evil eye, if that.

Islam is a younger religion than Christianity (by about 600 years) and is now going through what one might call its Dark Ages. It will also have its Renaissance and grow up.

Until then, don't go to places where there is religious rule.

An interesting theory Cote, but Islam did have an incredible renaissance in the 1000s when it encouraged learning of all kinds (seeking for knowledge is a tenet of the faith) andBahgdad was the most learned place in the world, and Muslims freely interacted with and respected those of other faiths and there was toleration, wisdom and respect.

This isn't about Islam itself particularly, it's about religion, and how people use it as a platform for intolerance and persecution. Any sensible person, even (indeed especially) a devout Muslim, can see that this woman should be understood and forgiven. If she is punished it will be because of extremism and mob mentality, which religion feeds on and always has. Makes me furious but I think we should be careful not to add to the cultural divisiveness this sort of thing, and the reporting off it, tends to whip up.