OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

[WendyWeber]

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

The idea of vicious bears being cuddly is a bit odd when you think about it too long. (I think I've been thinking about it too long)

the level/justifiability of offence is neither here nor there because there is no offence to religious or other sensibilities that could even begin to justify physically and permanently wounding another person. to even begin to go down that route doesn't aid understanding imo. it only encourages excuse making for barbarity.

lots of bears aren't vicious
pandas are perfectly charming if a little dull

I'm sorry, Blu. But I don't understand why a full grown adult would demur at the name of a cuddly toy being called Muhammud. It's a man's name, isn't it? Why can't it be the name of an inanimate object like a teddy bear?

It's totally nonsensical. Have fully grown men got nothing better to do?

Honestly?

Because a bear is an animal...and animals are not 'worthy'.
I don't think it's reasonable, I have no religious sensibilities at all...I am an atheist. But (bravely) this woman put herself ina a country where religious sensibilities are actually law.

Though, it seems , some of her Muslim colleagues were not offended, and are concerned to see her freed, etc etc.

I'm not saying what is happenong is reasonable. But you can't just dismiss the whole thing as mad muslims. The context is biger than that. Some of the mad muslims are protecting her, for a start.

You'd think from this thread that the conflict in Darfur was victimising Muslims. In fact it is quite the other way around. The Jajaweed are an Islamicist militia, raping and murdering black people. I fail to see why this excuses this wicked mistreatment of a clearly good person who has done nothing wrong.

Anybody who practices religion to an
extent where people are suppressed is the worst kind of evil.

I quite literally do not give a shit about any of it. There is no justification for imprisoning a woman who named a teddy bar Muhammed (or however the fuck you spell it).

Islam? Is that what it's about? That an Islamic state can imprison someone for naming a teddy bear????

If that's your religion, pardon me, but I'll pass.

I think 'fucking nutters' is a kind way to describe people who would want to imprison or physically attack a teacher for letting the children in her class name a teddy bear with a common name in that country.

Thank you, Ozy. I thought I was rather restrained, in the circ's.

I'm not surprised at this nonsense. I'm afraid that when it comes to rational perspective with respect to Islam, some Muslims are incapable of applying common sense.

What about the poor rape victim in Saudi Arabia who has been sentenced to 200 lashes.

IMO, there is something seriously wrong with a religion where so many of its proponents appear to be devoid of benevolence, empathy and dare I say it, respect for others.

Darfur, epitomises to me the brutality of the spread of Islamic doctrine.

Lets be honest here, how many Islamic asylum seekers do you think seek refuge in Islamic countries as oppose to the infidel West?

This is JUST the sort of extremist interpretation of the Koran that makes the MAJORITY of muslims despair I should think?

At worst it was indiscreet & naive of the teacher but as the naming came from the children it begs the question that if they had said George/Tony/Gordon would they have taken offence?Of course not they chose a popular boys name of that country. If it WAS such an insult to the religion I would have thought having a chat with the children & teacher about not naming animals after the prophet, & why would have been FAR more consrtuctive, for both sides.

But then that's coming from a reasonable standpoint which a lot of these fanatics have forgotten.

It's not the religion that's at fault it's the way it's interpreted by zealots that causes conflicts.

Muhammed Ali was and is worshipped by many as a hero, including myself. I'm surprised that the extremists have not called for the beheading of all his fans because surely, in their twisted logic, they would consider that idolatry?

Indeed spokette but he is a man & therefore I feel a different logic is often applied.

It really is a minority of muslims who act like this. But those are the ones who make the news. Just like the weird Christian groups in the US (creationists/anti-abotionists or what have you) are our image of the US religions.
Newspapers don't sell with stories of muslims/Christians/blue pixie worshippers doing everyday helpful things.
Desi - 500 years ago English nutters were bruning old women to death for being odd. Its not like we haven't had our share.
A lot of what goes on in Isalmist states isn't Islam. The Qu'ran teaches tolerance, non-judgement, a whole bunch of stuff similar to the bible which basically comes down to 'be nice to each other'. The Hadith show the Prohpeht to be a nice man who did his own sewing, was humble and kind etc. Same as the bible sows Jesus to have been a nice man etc etc But when fanatics get going, their verion of the religion bears no resemblance to the original. Would anyone want to live ina US christian Theocracy where Jesus appears to be a right wing republican who loathes the poor? Would any of us want to go back to the Inquisition?
I just don't know what it is about humans some days.
And many fanatic types haven't read the Qu'ran but parrot what an Imam tells them or their dad tells them it says or their culture tells them and thinks its Islamic (think female circumcision)
Darfur is hideous but its one more example of man doing terrible things to other humans with a dressing of religion put on top. All societies, whatever the religion du jour have done pretty much the same thing to 'the other' and we can pluck examples of utter stupidity like the teddy bear thing from most societies and most religions.

Well said NMC!!

Just as an aside why is it often the MEN in these societies/religions that get so fanatical? I know we have had female fanatics in the past & some are brain-washed into becoming such. But on the whole women have a much less cut & dried view of many situations I find (especaily on here we've had some cracking debated & I've learnt a lot!)& are far less hysterical about things.

Is it JUST a male/female thing? Not just culturally but in Christian society too-IRA/Sinn Fein for example male dominated fanatical groups.

I think that most women internalise religion and see it as between them and their deity while men externalise it and want everything around them to conform to what they believe.
Thats a generalisation of course. I'm sure there are humble men out there..somewhere...
They sure aren't doing it because they really care about other people's souls or what God will say to them when they die.

Ozy - I did not in any way say that the atrocity in Darfur excuses what has happened in Khartoum, nor that it is muslims who are the victims in that particular genocide.

But as others have said...it's a q of what makes the news, how it reflects on the majority of muslims here etcetc.

I am exasperated that a woman in a charitable school has fallen victim to this madness. Reading other reports of this, it has almost certainly been stirred up by rival schools / organisations. The men protesting outside the police station are almost certainly the hysterical mindless rent a mob.....the kind of people who wailed in the streets and agreed with the imprisonment, in the UK, only 10 years ago, of a visitor to our country who appparantly offended sensibilities by picking up an abandoned teddy that was lying on a public pavement. Of course common sense prevailed again pretty damn quick and the woman was released...and I hope that diplomatic intervention will do the same for this woman.

Blu, the voice of reason
This story is being used by the media to demonise Islam and comes from a benighted country where religious dissent is at fever pitch. So it is also being used (more understandably IMO) to shame a despotic and cruel government.

I don't think anyone's demonising Islam - you only have to report the facts to make it clear that the extremists are very, very wrong. And yes, other Muslims in that country are committing war crimes - rape and murder amongst them - against innocent men, women and children who do not share their faith. I guess imprisoning a woman for naming a teddy bear Mohammed pales into insignificance besides what they are suffering but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care about her.

We should be up in arms about Darfur, and putting massive pressure on our own government to assist the poor, desperate people who are suffering as a result of an ethnic war between Muslims and non-Muslims. I heard a woman in Darfur describing the Janjaweed militia raiding her village, snatching her little boy who was hiding behind her and throwing him on a fire.

Exactly my point although I was perhaps a little crap at getting it across...
Going into a country like that, in that desperate state of conflict, with a cruel and despotic government and hardline Sharia law is questionable, whatever or how kind your motivation.

In no way is what they are doing acceptable, I was merely trying to get across that what on earth would you expect from Sudan given the current state of affairs.

I feel very sorry for her edam, but I am surprised she was not briefed about Muhammed being a holy name with special status in Islam. The children might not have twigged that calling a stuffed toy after their most important prophet would be considered disrespectful by some, but the head of the school, who I understand to be local, should have given her some pointers beforehand, or maybe cribbed the FCO guidelines for non-Muslims working in the Middle East.
I really hope she is released without any further mistreatment and allowed to get on with her work. She is a brave soul to go and try and help the children of Sudan and I wish her luck.

snap

But the 'name' isn't given status as inviolate, is it? It is used as a given name.

They were using it as the name of a child in the class, not the name of the prophet.

While I fully accept that it is only a minority of muslims who are over reacting in this way. I don't think that it is helpful to 'excuse' the over reaction either.

We are told, by knowledgeable Muslim Mnetters, that islam is a religion of tolereance and understanding, and I'd agree with that.

this is vile distortion of a faith and should be condemned.

I don't think that the prophet would sanction the beating of a woman over the name of a bear, would you?

cod mentioned the idolatry issue further down though MB, I think it is that it is a toy animal. In many countries it is considered respectful to call boys Jesus, but possibly not a toy. Big difference is that this would not be news because IMO in the Western-dominated world media, in general:

1. Christians are OK and Muslims are not
2. Christianity currently has far fewer extremists who would call for physical punishment for this sort of minor mistake

Absolutely not condoning the actions of these vile extremists, just, as others have done, wondering why this good-hearted woman was not better briefed, given the volatile environment in which she is working

I think that while it might be because it is a toy animal, it may very well be a way of getting rid of this woman, and all the other western infulences in the area. I'm sure that the fire brand imams, who whip up this sort of hate are more interested in that , than the name of a bear.