British Soldier F gets away with murder.

[AnyName1]

I know little is taught in British schools about the north of Ireland, so wondered if people were aware of this shocking case.

villagemagazine.ie/the-guilt-of-an-unscrupulous-former-lord-chief-justice-in-the-soldier-f-cover-up-paratrooper-who-murdered-unarmed-civilians-on-bloody-sunday-has-been-protected-by-the-british-state-for-five-decades-an/

"Soldier F also known as ‘Dave’ will not now face criminal charges for the murder of innocent civilians in Derry on Bloody Sunday, 30 January 1972. This is because the statement he made after the Bloody Sunday massacre was not taken by the RUC, but rather by the Royal Military Police. These statements have been deemed inadmissable as evidence. Since this was standard procedure at the time, it probably means that no soldiers will be prosecuted for murder in Northern Ireland.

The policy of excluding the RUC from the investigation of killings caused by British solidiers came into existence after Brigadier Frank Kitson took over in Belfast.

Earlier this year Judge James O’Hara presided over the trial of two paratroopers accused of shooting Official IRA volunteer, Joe McCann. He was shot while he ran away from the soldiers. After the trial collapsed, the judge pointed out that:

At that time, in fact until late 1973, an understanding was in place between the RUC and the Army whereby the RUC did not arrest and question, or even take witness statements from, soldiers involved in shootings such as this one. This appalling practice was designed, at least in part, to protect soldiers from being prosecuted and in very large measure it succeeded."

I may have made a "bold statement" but it is a statement that a lot of people here in northern Ireland believe in. There's nothing boils my piss more than ignorant people giving opinions on things they know absolutely nothing about! You can read whatever articles to try and educate yourself but it is a fact that lies were told, cover ups made and politics rule in this country. I live in NI, I grew up in troubles, that doesn't mean I know the facts of what happened that day because I wasn't present! What I am present for, is seeing history being glorified,re written by people with their own agenda and clueless people with black and white thinking, giving opinions and all it is doing is teaching our up and coming generations bitterness, and where does that bitterness lead? Back to exactly what the majority of northern Ireland want to leave in the past!

I think bitterness comes from lack of accountability & lies personally.

The reality is crimes while army are on duty are seldom prosecuted. It's not just our army, it seems common world wide. I've read up about the events before, and even if our soliders did murder our civilians (and that's very likely the case) they will never be prosecuted. That's the real world, which must be a huge challenge for the families involved.

In the age of smartphones, cameras always on, I wonder will that change going forward? I've no doubt that the recent police convictions in the US would never have happened with supporting video recordings.

Leave the past in the past'. You saying this applies to all crimes or just this? Because it's a bold statement.

Very bold but something to be considered. Or carry on with inquiries , reviews , reports and failed prosecutions that depending on the view point some will never be happy with the outcome . Do we carry on with the same reviews for the next 50 years ?

live in NI, I grew up in troubles, that doesn't mean I know the facts of what happened that day because I wasn't present!

As above, my dad WAS present & he was a regular British Soldier & even he absolutely believes they were guilty & he was glad when the story broke that justice might finally done & the guilty Paras might finally be held to account. HE WAS THERE, he was involved with the clean up & it affected him deeply

Whatever else fits around this story, & I'm not going to pretend I fully know the ins & outs of the background to the troubles. They were in breach of the Geneva convention & were guilty as hell. That comes from an actual witness on the same team

@RuggerHug

Thanks.
I agree. A visual representation is just easier to follow.
I love watching battle re-enactments on the History channel, so much easier to understand.

I have to say I usually turn away from these types of conversations because as an outsider I just don't know who is right and often history changes not just because of people's perspectives but because the narrative can be altered enormously depending who are in charge.

like the 23 Oct '56 events in Hungary.
I school the last thing we learnt from history books was 4th April 1945 (Freedom Day) when the Soviet army came in and freed the Hungarians. cheers boys.
Cue communism & Soviet occupancy until 1989.
oh we did learn about Hiroshima & Nagasaki but nothing after August '44. not a peep.
Nobody was allowed to talk about '56. It was labelled as this dirty, nasty anti-communist act, a horrible rebellion against the wonderful & mighty Soviet Union, Imre Nagy's name was pulled through the mud and the people who died seen as war criminals & scum. The people who fled were called "dissidents" - which was worse than calling someone a c*nt.

then in 1989 it all changed. Tovarisi Konyec. People started talking. Umm kids, actually '56 was an Uprising, Imre Nagy a hero, let's erect a statue of him and make the 23rd October a National Holiday to remember the sacrifice of those civilians & the fight to free Hungary from the Soviets. and all the dissidents are now called political refugees.

I agree with all that is the current view point.
but it makes your head spin.

(sorry, don't mean to derail thread)

urgh, excuse typos

@SingingInTheShithouse

live in NI, I grew up in troubles, that doesn't mean I know the facts of what happened that day because I wasn't present!

As above, my dad WAS present & he was a regular British Soldier & even he absolutely believes they were guilty & he was glad when the story broke that justice might finally done & the guilty Paras might finally be held to account. HE WAS THERE, he was involved with the clean up & it affected him deeply

Whatever else fits around this story, & I'm not going to pretend I fully know the ins & outs of the background to the troubles. They were in breach of the Geneva convention & were guilty as hell. That comes from an actual witness on the same team

Yes. There were some very conscientious soldiers who gave evidence to the Ballymurphy inquest and gave unbiased accounts of the killings. Fair play to them.

@Fuckingcrustybread

When countries are at war no soldiers should be prosecuted. I'll support prosecution of all British soldiers when all IRA soldiers are equally prosecuted.

I haven't read the full thread yet but fuck me.

Clearly you know nothing, NOTHING, about the troubles. And you really shouldn't be commenting.

Yes. There were some very conscientious soldiers who gave evidence to the Ballymurphy inquest and gave unbiased accounts of the killings. Fair play to them.

Yes, & there were a lot more like my dad who were never asked for their opinion, which is beyond crap tbh. Hardly difficult for the military to track down ex squaddies as witnesses, but that never happened

@Fuckingcrustybread

When countries are at war no soldiers should be prosecuted. I'll support prosecution of all British soldiers when all IRA soldiers are equally prosecuted.

Where to start

There was no "war"

A British soldier shot a British lad while he was running away

You should be ashamed

Yep OP. It was a civil war on British soil and some British soldiers targeted British civilians on the basis of religion and political beliefs. Half a century later these soldiers are being protected by the government.

This sort of partisan dishonesty festers, as shown by the many visceral replies on this thread.

does anyone know about ptsd,
every day @ 20 veterans take their own life, every day!

For clarity, the reason RMP evidence was ruled inadmissible was that the soldiers were not cautioned, they were not allowed legal representation, they were compelled to make statements and were not given any opportunity to explain their actions. These are fundamental failings.

I believe it was soldier B who shot a child, not soldier F.

@AbsolutelyPatsy

does anyone know about ptsd, every day @ 20 veterans take their own life, every day!

And? That justifies shooting a 15 year old countryman of theirs in the back of the head, does it?

[quote ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba]@RuggerHug

Thanks.
I agree. A visual representation is just easier to follow.
I love watching battle re-enactments on the History channel, so much easier to understand.

I have to say I usually turn away from these types of conversations because as an outsider I just don't know who is right and often history changes not just because of people's perspectives but because the narrative can be altered enormously depending who are in charge.

like the 23 Oct '56 events in Hungary.
I school the last thing we learnt from history books was 4th April 1945 (Freedom Day) when the Soviet army came in and freed the Hungarians. cheers boys.
Cue communism & Soviet occupancy until 1989.
oh we did learn about Hiroshima & Nagasaki but nothing after August '44. not a peep.
Nobody was allowed to talk about '56. It was labelled as this dirty, nasty anti-communist act, a horrible rebellion against the wonderful & mighty Soviet Union, Imre Nagy's name was pulled through the mud and the people who died seen as war criminals & scum. The people who fled were called "dissidents" - which was worse than calling someone a c*nt.

then in 1989 it all changed. Tovarisi Konyec. People started talking. Umm kids, actually '56 was an Uprising, Imre Nagy a hero, let's erect a statue of him and make the 23rd October a National Holiday to remember the sacrifice of those civilians & the fight to free Hungary from the Soviets. and all the dissidents are now called political refugees.

I agree with all that is the current view point.
but it makes your head spin.

(sorry, don't mean to derail thread)[/quote]
It's really interesting, none of us know everything so it's always good to suss out what happens/happened other places. I've heard similar re communism from my Polish mates so I'll find something from Hungarian perspective to see soon thanks

Every. Single. Time. Whenever there’s a thread about atrocities committed by the British army against their own subjects, commenters appear all up in arms “but what about the IRAAAAAAAAAAAA”. Yeah, no shit the IRA committed murder. Due to being a terrorist organisation, duh.
Last time I checked, armies are an arm of state. I feel quite weary saying it again and plenty of people have said it already on this thread, but once more for the cheap seats in the back:

The British Army shot and killed their own citizens, including teens, who were participating in a civil rights march.
Imagine if your teenage kids went along to an anti-racism march, or a pride march, and were gunned down by the army?! Just because it happened in NI doesn’t make it any different.

Absolute LOL at the poster calling them “IRA soldiers”. You know that makes you a terrorist sympathiser, right, not me?

does anyone know about ptsd,
every day @ 20 veterans take their own life, every day!

Which is dreadful & the gov & society should do better however shooting civilians is not a remedy.

but we cannot prosecute one side without looking at IRA behaviour

Eh?? the people murdered weren’t IRA. All innocent people, children. Why would the IRA have anything to do with whether these murderers are prosecuted?

Do you actually know who was killed? Or are you under the commonly held misapprehension that catholic in NI = IRA = fair game?

People have lost loved ones due to the troubles in northern Ireland. Plenty of British soldiers lost their lives in truly horrendous murders in this country, along with the lasting trauma of what was actually witness...nothing justifies the murder of a child, a soldier or any human life...it is not a game of tit for tat nor is it a time to make childish remarks with comments like "and"! I find this thread totally offensive and full of ignorance!

@Willyoujustbequiet

It's wrong.

So was the murder of all the innocents by the IRA, including children.

All sides should be held to account for their actions, families should get justice and their day in court.

Christ a-fucking-live!!!

I'm pleased by the ruling. In dirty guerilla wars you have to fight to the same rules. Our troops need more support from malicious prosecutions.

@Whoarethewho

I'm pleased by the ruling. In dirty guerilla wars you have to fight to the same rules. Our troops need more support from malicious prosecutions.

And you have no issue with the British army shooting unarmed civilians who are peacefully protesting their lack of civil rights?

nor is it a time to make childish remarks with comments like "and"! I find this thread totally offensive and full of ignorance!

Waffling on about soldier PTSD is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand and an attempt to divert attention away from the actual issue under debate. No different to all the "but but but IRA" nonsense being peddled here.

If a decent soldier suffers PTSD then that's very safe of course. For these lads...if they die roaring, I won't shed a tear. I'm sure they didn't shed one for their civilian victims.

Sad, not safe! Autocorrect strikes again.