British Soldier F gets away with murder.

[AnyName1]

I know little is taught in British schools about the north of Ireland, so wondered if people were aware of this shocking case.

villagemagazine.ie/the-guilt-of-an-unscrupulous-former-lord-chief-justice-in-the-soldier-f-cover-up-paratrooper-who-murdered-unarmed-civilians-on-bloody-sunday-has-been-protected-by-the-british-state-for-five-decades-an/

"Soldier F also known as ‘Dave’ will not now face criminal charges for the murder of innocent civilians in Derry on Bloody Sunday, 30 January 1972. This is because the statement he made after the Bloody Sunday massacre was not taken by the RUC, but rather by the Royal Military Police. These statements have been deemed inadmissable as evidence. Since this was standard procedure at the time, it probably means that no soldiers will be prosecuted for murder in Northern Ireland.

The policy of excluding the RUC from the investigation of killings caused by British solidiers came into existence after Brigadier Frank Kitson took over in Belfast.

Earlier this year Judge James O’Hara presided over the trial of two paratroopers accused of shooting Official IRA volunteer, Joe McCann. He was shot while he ran away from the soldiers. After the trial collapsed, the judge pointed out that:

At that time, in fact until late 1973, an understanding was in place between the RUC and the Army whereby the RUC did not arrest and question, or even take witness statements from, soldiers involved in shootings such as this one. This appalling practice was designed, at least in part, to protect soldiers from being prosecuted and in very large measure it succeeded."

BBC iPlayer spotlight on the troubles is a good starting point.I’d urge people to watch

@Bythemillpond

Kanaloa

To the poster saying they would support this when the IRA were also charged, I’m pretty sure members of the IRA were imprisoned for their crimes? So that’s already happened

But then they were all let out.

Atm there are too many people who lived through the reality of the IRA. Too many people who’s lives were changed by their actions. I know we are supposed to forgive and forget but that should be both sides. Not just one side who are now immune to any prosecution.

Again - the other side is not the British army or the RUC. The other side is Loyalist paramilitaries who had the same provisions under the Good Friday agreement as the IRA. Where early release applied, it applied to both sides.

Why do you see justice for innocent British civilians as a sop to the IRA? Why are you conflating their stories with terrorists' stories? Are you assuming they were all involved really? That Irish Catholics hadn't the same right to state protection as Scots Presbyterians, Welsh Methodists, London Anglicans.

Why?

[quote Fuckingcrustybread]@pallisers
There is no such thing as "IRA soldiers" . Although the IRA thought they were soldiers and would be heartened by you calling them so
I was going to refer to them as murderous fucking terrorists. I tried to be slightly polite but fuck that now.[/quote]
I know you were.

What a pity you cannot face your own history.

Think the Army acquitted themselves admirably in NI, but this was a rogue Para colonel who was implicated in two massacres. Please don't say that the army behaved appallingly in NI, because largely they didn't.

The prosecutions should have occurred at the time. My brother was a soldier and he thought that commanding officers should have been prosecuted for these killings, not the rank and file soldiers, I agree with him.

[quote Fuckingcrustybread]@pallisers
There is no such thing as "IRA soldiers" . Although the IRA thought they were soldiers and would be heartened by you calling them so
I was going to refer to them as murderous fucking terrorists. I tried to be slightly polite but fuck that now.[/quote]
I don't know that anyone here would disagree. I'd agree.

It's not okay for British soldiers to shoot unarmed fellow subjects when there's no threat to them. You must know that, and your opinion of the IRA doesn't change it.

Thought experiment : if you were living in a state where army and police could attack you and your family with impunity - what options would you have to protect yourself? Bloody Sunday wasn't just a massacre of innocents. It was a huge blow to anyone on the Republican side who wanted to win their rights through peaceful protest. I've never supported the IRA, but I'd hate to have been trying to contain that situation.

@douliket

The great genocide of the Irish, while Ireland was still under full rule of Britain. The great famine, men shot dead for trying to find food to feed their children. The British,with plentiful food,sat back and filled their bellies while the children of Ireland died painful horrific deaths of starvation while all their mothers could only do is be with them for comfort as they lay dying themselves. The people of Ireland will never forget. This isn't taught to children in British schools as the British like to forget. The world has not forgotten though,it is a big part of who the Irish are today and why they are considered to be one of the strongest and most passionate,likeable nations in the world today. They fought back from nothing. They showed no fear when claiming back their land. Nobody can fault the IRAs cause. Of course the Irish had to fight back,the Irish nation wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the freedom fighters and Britain would have happily wanted it that way,but it will never be forgotten, it is a massive part of what Ireland is today.

Yes to all this! Remember it was said in Parliament that starvation was ideal because 'we should have a celtic man in Ireland as rare as a red Indian in Ney York '. If anyone reading this who hasn't commented because they don't know enough but want to learn, or anyone here being offensive who wants to better themselves, Black 47 is a film that shows in less than two hours the complexities and reality of less than 1 decade of time that effected a lot of history here and beyond.

What is amazing to me reading this is so many posts about when you are at war or the army acquitted itself well etc.

Do people in the UK not get that this was an army firing on its own people? This was an army in the streets against its own citizens?

I don't blame the soldiers but the orders. Seriously of the army was ordered to do what it did in Northern Ireland in london or Edinburgh or Swansea what would have happened

This wasn't a war against Ireland. This was a civil war in your own country - the UK.

@junipertree2

Think the Army acquitted themselves admirably in NI, but this was a rogue Para colonel who was implicated in two massacres. Please don't say that the army behaved appallingly in NI, because largely they didn't.

The prosecutions should have occurred at the time. My brother was a soldier and he thought that commanding officers should have been prosecuted for these killings, not the rank and file soldiers, I agree with him.

Makes sense to me that many served well and some (more than one rogue colonel!) not. You'd feel sorry for young men sent to NI. There was a culture of lying and cover-ups that pervaded the whole operation though. And much as I'd like to know if a majority behaved well - how can we trust in that when the state so clearly wants to bury inquiry and prosecution?

But I don't see why rank and file soldiers who behaved as F did shouldn't have been prosecuted? If it was just a few bad apples, clearly everyone else managed to avoid killing random children? By all means go after their superiors too if they were implicated, but if you arm someone, at any rank, you have to hold them responsible for pulling the trigger in war crimes.

@junipertree2

Think the Army acquitted themselves admirably in NI, but this was a rogue Para colonel who was implicated in two massacres. Please don't say that the army behaved appallingly in NI, because largely they didn't.

The prosecutions should have occurred at the time. My brother was a soldier and he thought that commanding officers should have been prosecuted for these killings, not the rank and file soldiers, I agree with him.

I don't mean anything against your brother as an individual(I said upthrend I've family in the BAF), but if he'd held/used a gun on innocent children/citizens would he blame his advisors/higher officers or would he say they to me to do it/I was brainwashed/I thought it was appropriate.

@pallisers

What is amazing to me reading this is so many posts about when you are at war or the army acquitted itself well etc.

Do people in the UK not get that this was an army firing on its own people? This was an army in the streets against its own citizens?

I don't blame the soldiers but the orders. Seriously of the army was ordered to do what it did in Northern Ireland in london or Edinburgh or Swansea what would have happened

This wasn't a war against Ireland. This was a civil war in your own country - the UK.

I get what you mean but it wasn't their own citizens in their eyes. It was kill the paddy's in the way/annoying us by being alive. Kill/terrorise them out of their homes and then the land is ours and we don't have to acknowledge them as humans.

pallisers

What is amazing to me reading this is so many posts about when you are at war or the army acquitted itself well etc

What would you call it when you have bombs going off in the street and people being blown up.

And yet people dare to give out about Irish people refusing the poppy (is it James McClean who gets dog's abuse every year?). Yeah, buy a poppy and support fine upstanding gentlemen like Soldier F and Soldier B... So tempting.

@Bythemillpond

pallisers

What is amazing to me reading this is so many posts about when you are at war or the army acquitted itself well etc

What would you call it when you have bombs going off in the street and people being blown up.

I call it a civil war. It was a civil war in YOUR country. your war in your country.

Not a war in Ireland. A war in Northern Ireland part of the Uk

Own it.

I remember the IRA and the havoc that was caused, however they were fighting for a cause they believed in. The British were no angles either and were no angels, of course no one should get away with any criminal activity whether at war or not. I do think he should have faced prosecution if only to send a message that murder of innocent civilians will not be tolerated. However the circumstances including fear etc should be considered. How many of us can say how we would have reacted in the same situation?

The timing of this is unfortunate too as it's right before the 12th. Bet there'll be some beautiful additions to the bonfires.

@SionnachRua

The feckin irony of saying that the IRA are being let away with murder when far more of them have been convicted than any British soldier. That's without mentioning the loyalist paramilitaries - always interesting how they're left out, isn't it? Let's just focus everything on the republicans.

And again, if you consider your army to be on par with paramilitaries, there must be a massive problem with that army.

I’ve begun asking people about loyalist paramilitaries — as in, whether they’re aware of their existence — after discovering that apparently reasonably well-informed British people were under the impression that there was ‘only the IRA’. Which apparently ‘blew things up to attract attention’ in a vacuum.

None of us were there & none of us saw what these soldiers saw that day, all we have is second hand stories, I would imagine that there were things going on all around these soldiers, noise, smoke, shouting. While nobody should condone the shooting of a child, the day that soldiers have to be worried about prosecution when they fire their weapons is the day that they won't have their minds fully on the job at hand & most likely more innocent people could be hurt or killed.

@Fuckingcrustybread

When countries are at war no soldiers should be prosecuted. I'll support prosecution of all British soldiers when all IRA soldiers are equally prosecuted.

We weren't at war with northern Ireland.

Your statement means that the Hague war crimes court wouldn't exist.

That armies committing mass rape, murdering civilians, bombing schools and hosps is not a problem.

What about genocide? E.g Srebrenica?

I don't agree with your stance and I don't see how it applies to NI anyway as we weren't at war with northern Ireland.

The IRA was not the STATE. Your fucking taxes didn't pay for IRA murder...but you did pay for the British Army murdering with impunity in the North of Ireland.

@Northofsomewhere

I think it's clearly harder to hold civilians (members of the IRA) to account, they were clearly hiding their identities and often protected by communities. Where there is evidence of exactly who committed what acts against other civilians there should be similar murder cases brought. I think it's clear in this case that what occurred was unjustified and unjustifiable and amounts to murder. I just hope they can bring some of the other cases forward in the future and receive some kind of justice for those families.

I absolutely don't think being a soldier should prevent you from receiving punishment for crimes including murder. It's not ok to say we won't punish British soldiers just because the 'enemy' won't punish theirs in the same way. If they were given a pardon as a soldier I don't doubt we'd be even less aware of some of the atrocities committed by soldiers. Most clearly don't do this and are professionals and doing their jobs well.

I learnt about the early fights for independence in Ireland during my A-level history but it stopped at just before WWII, I guess it is still in living memory and therefore a more contentious topic. My uncle was station in Ireland for a time in the late 70's/80's as a Royal Marine. He's not a particularly nice man and has some horrific views and while I don't doubt he saw and experienced some awful things I thing is personality always leaned to the selfish and mean side. If he had committed any of the crimes which these soldiers have I would want and expect him to go to trial and have the law enforced.

It's not ok to say we won't punish British soldiers just because the 'enemy' won't punish theirs in the same way. If they were given a pardon as a soldier I don't doubt we'd be even less aware of some of the atrocities committed by soldiers. Most clearly don't do this and are professionals and doing their jobs well.

And what exactly is that "job"? This is all an obscufation. All murder is murder, no matter what cultural affliations/ job titles/ nationalities/ job titles people associate with that murdering to justify it to themselves.

@Pixxie7

I remember the IRA and the havoc that was caused, however they were fighting for a cause they believed in. The British were no angles either and were no angels, of course no one should get away with any criminal activity whether at war or not. I do think he should have faced prosecution if only to send a message that murder of innocent civilians will not be tolerated. However the circumstances including fear etc should be considered. How many of us can say how we would have reacted in the same situation?

'How many of us can say we would have reacted in the same situation?'

Do you mean a soldier told to load a gun, aim and fire into a child's face or the person involved in paperwork and orders over radio ordering same?

@Nat6999

None of us were there & none of us saw what these soldiers saw that day, all we have is second hand stories, I would imagine that there were things going on all around these soldiers, noise, smoke, shouting. While nobody should condone the shooting of a child, the day that soldiers have to be worried about prosecution when they fire their weapons is the day that they won't have their minds fully on the job at hand & most likely more innocent people could be hurt or killed.

Some of us were there or have first hand accounts of immediate family members. It's not ancient history to a lot of us.

Sorry didn't realise that ludicrous post had been replied to so much already.

OP I'm not even slightly surprised.

It is unimaginable that there would be a prosection.

Totally different situation but it's the same dynamic with my police force.

I can think of at least two people they have murdered and then lied about it, in the last few years.

Someone else mentioned Hillsborough.

Same dynamic.

@pallisers

So many people can't face their history.

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