Today's the day! What's your prediction - Bush or Kerry?

[tex111]

Unfortunately I think Bush will win again. I think the latest Bin Laden tape will actually help him and make the difference. What do you guys think?

goes back to that old observation that it's ok for kids to witness violence, murders and heavy usage of guns on tv/film, as if this is in any way ' normal' yet banning kids from seeing anything pertaining to sex. the hypocrisy is astounding and gut-wrenchingly WRONG

i wonder what the us tv censors and the puritan right would make of the street posters on the lamposts in liverpool at the moment. they're by yoko ono and each one carries an image of bare breasts or a vagina bearing the slogan 'my mummy'. would love to see their take on this!

sorry for the cinstant posting - but things keep occurring to me on this theme - remember the episode of the Simpsons where michaelangelo's david came to springfield and the moral right tried to get it banned for being obscene. they alwasy have that dreadful female character harping on in the foreground 'but what about the children?!'... LOL

I so agree. Such a twisted view of it all. The thing that worries me most about this form of 'morality' is how it affects young people. One of Bush's policies is to make sex education in schools about abstinence rather than contraception. Of course, teen pregnancy and venereal disease rates are at their highest under his administration. I just think it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Teenagers are going to have sex. Better to have an open honest discussion about it than basically say it's dirty and you shouldn't do it.

I think the country has gone mad, who wants a triggger happy pratt to run their country....

and then Tony will follow whatever bush said, coz he's a sheep! baaaaaaaa!!!

This is something that has interested me, and I'm not trying to defend Blair by asking but, what would have been the consequences if he had gone against Bush? What if Blair had said no, it's an unjust war, what do you think would've happened?

I'm just curious because I've heard the view in the States that he had no choice. The consequences regarding trade, UK/US relations, etc would have been too disasterous. They used the example of France and how, apparently, their economy is suffering due to their reaction to Iraq (don't even know if that's true though). Anyone have an opinion?

Yes, I've heard that view in the States (about Blair) too, Tex111. It will be interesting to see what people post here.

Also, it's not just sex education that will be lacking, it's also teaching about evolution....

Oh Lord, I think I blocked out the evolution thing. It really embarrasses me when I hear things about what Bush is doing to the States. [cringing smiley] Awful!

Moomin, is there a link for a look at the Yoko Ono posters? They sound fabulous!

tex111, I guess I blocked the whole evolution thing out as well. It's as if they are trying to restage the Scopes Monkey trial all over again.

DH had an interesting comment yesterday when we were discussing the voting on "moral issues" that seemed to put Bush over the top. He said, "Oh my gosh, they are still voting out Clionton!" I had not thought about it that way but the Puritanical outrage over the Lewinsky affair was a sight to see. He may certainly have a point. The conservative right has a long memory about searching through Monica's lingerie drawer but a short one about Bush's military record, his reinterpretation of the Clear Air and Clean Water Acts and pretty much any other despicable thing you wish to add.

Tex, I just saw a little segment on the Today show this morning where they have changed some wording in Texas school textbooks to talk about marriage as being a decison a man and a woman make instead of a decision 2 people make. The school board said they had to do it after the election and the vote against recognising gay marriage.

Don't they have better things to do with their time?

Scary. Have you heard about the groups in Texas who are basically controlling what goes into textbooks now? The companies who print them say that it is so expensive to print an issue they have to make sure it will be accepted so are being careful about what they put in books now. Rather a backdoor censorship as most people in the country actually don't know about it.

How scary! I had always thought that we'd move back to the US when my eldest would be able to start high school (he's never been to school in the US). But if they're messing around with science education....

And not to mention everything else. Sigh.

I know, I've been thinking that we should definitely leave the US when ds starts high school (if not before!).

Actually, I think they've been trying to alter text books and the like for quite some time. Five years ago or so, I remember talking to someone at Scholastic, who said that they weren't "allowed" to use the word evolution in their material! I was really shocked.

It will certainly be far more overt, and far worse now, sorry to say.

That's such an interesting point about the Puritan spirit being entrenched since the Pilgrim Fathers, I had never thought of that. Kate and I were discussing how lovely it is that the yob culture of Britain is simply not tolerated here, but is that simply one of the few plusses of "family values"? Is it possible to have the family 0riented strong sense of community that I appreciate about the US, without the focus being on the church and right wing values (which I don't!)
Just by the by (and not America bashing, honestly, but OMG ): my brother is a parish priest in Northern Vermont, and it was his 10th anniversary of ordination this week. His parishioners clubbed together to get him a present, and bought him....................

a gun!

see michael moore website to give a little hope for the future...

jabberwocky - can't find an exact link to the yoko ono art but did find this

Thanks moomin! I just love this concept.

Turquoise, I don't know about the yob culture . What's the gist of it?

Turquoise: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tex111 - Harold Wilson faced similar pressures to send British troops to Vietnam in the 60s. He refused. There were no obvious adverse consequences. I would be amazed if this were the reason why British troops were sent. I think Blair wanted to get involved.

Oldiemum, it's interesting to me to read the US take on it all and I wondered how valid it actually was. To me it sounds quite bullying and boastful - 'What else could they do. We would've ruined them if they didn't support us.' Anyone else got an opinion on this?

I have found it interesting and gratifying that France is holding its ground on the issue and has suffered none of the predicted adverse effects.

i can't decide whether blair is actually pissed off that bush has got in again as it means he'll still need to toady. in the sunday times last week their columnist in the us, andrew sullivan actually said he was leaning on the side of kerry, which was a bit of a turnaround for him. in his article he put forward the view that if bush got in again blair would eventually be forced to make a decision against the us, namely withdrawing the british troops in iraq, for fear of his own non re-election. it was also implied (elsewhere in the paper) that some people high up in the kabour party had sent good luck wushes to kerry and blair was desperately trying to keep this under wraps as he didn't want to upset bush. there again, the st is a right wing murdoch-owned rag...

or even the labour party...