Today's the day! What's your prediction - Bush or Kerry?

[tex111]

Unfortunately I think Bush will win again. I think the latest Bin Laden tape will actually help him and make the difference. What do you guys think?

lisalisa but we do hear of Bernie Eccelston's money, the Hinduja brothers, the American mafia/casino lobby money (in the recent casino debate).... there is plenty of talk about plenty of donors !!!! Granted these are not done in a particularely complimentary way but there are plenty of groups and individuals who have loads of money and who seek to influence with it.... the Jews are part of that group in that instance... For that matter the Vatican is also very influential with its money and so are some of the American evangelists!
The issue with the Jewish money in this instance is that it is linked to the Israel/Palestine debate/war what ever you want to call it.... and it is not a secret that Israel wants the US on its side and will do what it needs to continue having that support.

Who ever mentioned Murdoch and his wish to become Chinese to buy more media over there.... no wonder his new wife is Chinese....

I'm so sad. I walked around yesterday feeling as if I were in a bad dream. You know the kind that are so outrageous you know it must be a dream but you can't make yourself wake up. Of course, this time it's a waking nightmare.

A friend of mine commiserated and said that we have to realize that America is just not a progressive country. Maybe it's similar to an adolescent, with little regard toward the plight of those who are less fortunate, no tolerance for those who are different, the feeling that one knows it all and knows what is best for everyone else regardless of what THEY want, and the overriding idea that having a lot of money in one's own pocket regardless of what that means to the common good and the environment is the way to happiness. I wish that I had a job that would transfer overseas. I hate for my son to grow up in this environment.

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Jabberwocky, I've often thought of America as an adolescent just as you've described! It's amazing to hear someone else say that. It is a very young country to have so much power and I do think that we're finding our way and obviously having growing pains much like a teenager.

The other thing that hit me after living in England for a few years is how much England has been through as far as the World Wars and actually being bombed. Growing up in the US we hear stories about the Blitz, rationing, etc and learn about it in history class but it's just a story about a place far away. I don't think the American people can imagine what it would be like to be attacked night after night and have buildings destroyed on a daily basis. 9/11 is really the first time that we've been attacked on our own soil (not forgetting Pearl Harbour, of course). Hopefully we'll learn from the experience and 'mature' from it. Very unfortunate that we're going through this process under Bush, talk about an adolescent!

I'm new to mumsnet .. been feeling depressed today with the Bush win and none of my mummy-friends are remotely 'interested in politics' and think I am a bit mad because I've been on the verge of tears for two days. I really wish I was at work so I could going on a long drinking session with fellow beer-loving liberals...

I don't know what depresses me more... the budget deficit, the denial of global warming or going back on the developments in feminism and gay rights.

I get the Guardian every day and really loved the G2 cover. It almost cheered me up. Then I read the news coverage of the election word for word to prolong the agony... Burst into tears again reading Kerry's concession speech - it was all so moving and he seemed so bloody BRILLIANT - made it even worse to listen to Bush stuttering over his simple speech like a nine-year old reading out loud in class.

Anyway I've been reading these threads for an hour or so and you are all SO lovely! Even the lone Republican!

It's great to be here! Even if we are facing Four More Years. Thanks for letting me ramble.

hey! don't insult nine-year-olds!

Morningpaper I too was in tears today reading about Kerry. I find it all too too scary - that most people who voted for Bush were concerned about gay marriage, abortion and stem cell research. TBH I'f feel more comfortable if their motives were to do with the so-cllaed war on terror.

Puddle: glad it wasn't just me! All my friends think I must be up the duff. sigh

Just got back to the thread and it's comforting to hear from others who are as upset as I am. I got an email earlier from a friend that had a joke about redrawing the borders of the US into the United States of Canada which included states that went for Kerry and the Bush states labeled as "Jesusland". It does feel as if this is actually two countries masquerading as one.

Bush is a very rare creature, the first dumb chimp I have seen.

morningpaper - you have amazingly described excatly how I am feeling too!! I can't believe more people aren't interested either

Did Canada really want to join the EU? I can't really believe that!
Canada is largely ignored by whoever is occupying the White House.....we're not a player on the international stage by any means, but pretty much seen as the 'poor cousins' from up north.

Someone sent this to DH regarding voter IQ and the election. Not scientific or anything, but at least it made us laugh.

i feel more despondent about this than i think i would if the tories got in in the next election over here. dh and i were saying last night that at least the tories are ineffectual - i think bush and the power the us has at the moment is downright dangerous.

i cried when i heard about the blackwatch soldiers last night. it's all so wrong. it's making me feel like i think the bush voters have been thinking 'we'll look after our own and to hell with the rest of the world' and I've NEVER felt like that about politics before. I think i'm going have to impose a news blackout in this house for the time being otherwise i'll get too depressed.

lisalisa - you say Israel is 'surrounded on all sides by hostile neighbours'; how do you account for Israeli hostilities towards the Palestinians who in effect are forced to live as refugees in their own land which Israel took in the six day war, as well as Jordanian and Lebanese lands.How do you justify the continued formation of Israeli illegal settlements which take yet more land away from these people? And you also say they exist in a world where few people care whether or not they survive-how can you say this when the US supplies so many arms to them as well as financial aid? I notice noone has yet commented on my earlier posts when I outlined several actions the Israelis have taken against the Palestinians, and you didn't come back to my point that Israel has broken more UN resolutions than any other country ( just check the Amnesty website).And you seem to be getting confused with sentiments expressed on this board as being anti semitic when they are not at all.Let's not try to say that anyone who is against Israeli domination of the territories in anti semitic because that is deliberately inflammatory as well as inaccurate.And spare a thought for anyone on this board who may have relatives who are in the middle east and being oppressed by Israel.You do not have a monopoly on suffering.None of us do.

Israel has always been willing to exchange land for peace. Unfortunately the Arab nations have not been interested in peace, so the displaced Palestinians suffer, with no real assistance from the Arab nations. After so many years is it any wonder that the Palestinians use terrorism, and after so many years of terrorism is it any wonder that more and more Israelis are fed up and are less and less willing to make the sacrifices necessary for peace. Israel has made peace with neighbours, and has returned territory conquered in war, several times in her existence. The Jews were very nearly wiped out 60 years ago - it's not historical, it's our parents' experience. It doesn't give us a monopoly on suffering, just a very different perspective.

It would be wonderful if Israel and the Palestinians could make peace, but that needs enough people on both sides to want it and to agree to sacrifice things. How about repeating that sentence with 'Iraqis', or with 'Northern Ireland', or with 'Korea', or with any number of African Republics. Just as the Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering, they also don't have a monopoly on living in difficult times.

Don't let this thread be hijaked down the road of historical arguement. I thought we were talking about the presidential election here?
That's a modern debate

Okay, can I sidetrack somewhere completely different? Thought I'd share this site: Sorry Everybody

I have again been accused of anti-semitism by lisalisa, so I think I should make my position clear. I mentioned the Jewish vote in response to a specific question from Uwila about what influences US policy towards Israel. Any textbook on American foreign policy would make the same point. American politics, as in many other countries, is heavily influenced by lobby groups which organise to influence government policy in areas of concern to them. The most successful are able to mobilise voters around the issues which they lobby over. We have seen this phenomenon very dramatically this week, as the evangelical Christian right mobilised many people who had not voted in previous presidential elections. So there is an evangelical Christian vote, a gun-owners vote, a black vote and so on. This is what I had in mind, not some anti-semitic slur against one group of US voters. I wasn't dressing up anti-semitism in polite language, as lisalisa accused me of doing, but merely explaining how US politics works. I stand by my right to make what is an obvious point to any student of US politics.

Last night I had a discussion with a friend over the success of the Republican party to rally around "moral" issues. In essence, America will continue to send its citizens to Iraq to die, but at least we will prevent gays from getting married. I just want to go to bed and pull the covers over my head for 4 years. Of course, apathy is what the Bush regime wants so the rest of us over here will have to do what we can to keep our spirits up and work towards some semblance of sanity in politics.

I heard an interview a while back on NPR with an English bishop who commented that there was much rejoicing when the Puritans left England for America. He pointed out that the Puritanical way of thinking is still very much entrenched in America from that period. I certainly agree. How long can this narrow minded way of thinking persist? It is frightening to note that it is still so obviously in force.

Interesting link GeorginaA. I'm going to forward it to some friends in the US.

I'm staying out of the Israel discussion. Just don't know enough about it to contribute. I will say that I certainly didn't think that comments made were anti-semitic but were relevant to the topic. Just as has already been said there is such thing as the Jewish vote as well as the Latino, Christian, Female vote, etc, etc. By the way, I did notice on CNN that more women voted for Kerry and more men voted for Bush. Now nobody start saying anything negative about the Redneck vote (though I'm sure they voted Bush) or I will have to kick some ass.

Here is an interesting link for anyone puzzled about the way in which the Republicans made no attempt to reach out to the centre of the electorate. here

Jabberwocky, once again I agree with you whole-heartedly. The Puritan vibe is still strong in America. Look at all the furor over Janet Jackson' breast! After that incident the TV regulations were changed and you couldn't even say the word 'boob' on TV. The censoring is always ridiculous anyway. We were watching some US show the other day and a girl came on in hotpants and the censors had blurred her bottom so you couldn't get a peek at her bum cheeks. Last I heard thongs were actually illegal on most US beaches! Now, I'm not saying I want to see people's bottoms all the time but I don't see the point of making it illegal to show them.

I know what you mean.The whole censorship thing is really getting ridiculous.

Last year I was in Vienna on a business trip. There were posters up for an art exhibit and the piece chosen had two women and at least one had bare breasts. Can't remember the exact composition. Anyway, later in the week the wife of a colleague showed up to join him and was mortified, stating, "I'm glad I didn't bring the children!" I was mortified that anyone could view what was obviously art as pornography which was what she was doing. So sad.