Guardian story - teacher has resigned :-(

[auntyspan]

I'm so furious. Someone who used to teach me has had to resign due to a scuffle involving a year eleven lad. The pupil apparently called him something racist and shoved him and when the teacher pushed him back he fell over, and consequently it's classed as an assault.

I'm appalled that a teacher of his calibre, experience and principals has had to resign. This kid has been in stacks of trouble, is a known trouble-maker and a bully, and is laughing about the fact he got a teacher 'sacked'.

This teacher is exactly the decent type of teacher I want teaching my kids - good disciplinarion and someone who genuinely cares about the kids. A rash moment has ruined his career.

very cross at the moment.

Just as an example of what Fio has mentioned. We had a parent complain that her child had been excluded from school (not a permanent exclusion btw).

The reason for the exclusion was that her child took a knife to school and pulled it on another child.

She accused us of overreacting 'because he wouldn't have used it, it was just for show'.

I don't think it's really about self-defence in the Bunsen burner case. It's more about (as MB said) reflex: slapping a child in the face is indeed a less appropriate reaction than pushing the child away, but if you're being burned with a Bunsen burner your ability to weigh up appropriateness and what action may be the best course of self-defence might well be temporarily removed by the pain.

You are linking "any teacher who thumps my child should and will lose his job" with "my child is infallible and if he's given his Maths teacher a Chelsea smile she must have arxed forrit"

I subscribe to the former, not the latter. because I think ALL violence is wrong in school - and violent adults are more culpable than violent children. To me that's not complicated!

No I'm not. I am simply pointing out that we are often dealing with parents who are not going to deal with their child's poor behavior.

Not all parents are like this, but we have a minority who are. Sadly we often have problems with the children of this group of parents.

I agree with Kathy. Normally, I would agree with Greensleeves that hitting a child on the head would be seriosu enough for dismissal. Doing it while being burned though - I'm not so sure.

But the bunsen burner thing is an extreme example, as I said before. Both provocation and response are usually much less severe.

Kathy, we have this discussion endlessly on smacking threads as well (and nobody ever agrees with me on those either). Some people claim that their first instinct when a child is hurting/endangering them is to hit. Some people even claim that their fist instinct when a child is endangering/hurting itself is to hit. I don't accept this - the primary instinct in either case should surely be to stop/remove the pain/danger/whatever as quickly as possible? So IMO 'reflex' is a good enough reason for pushing a blowlamp-wielding child out of range, and if said child gets a bruised rump from landing on the floor, tough shit. A thump/slap/blow to the head however isn't a self-protective reflex, it's an act of retaliatory aggression. And therefore unacceptable.

first instinct, not fist instinct

For all we know the teacher flung out their arm and smacked the child in the face.

Would you want them sacked for that?

Well, I think being hit across the face by a man twice your size is a reasonable punishment for having a go with a busen burner. I would hope it would be no joke. Would object if the teacher used a crow bar, would object if the child (my son, for the purposes of this scenario)was younger but it would be more to me than a case of childish misbehaviour - its assault for Gods sake. I would sincerely hope that by 11 any child of mine would know that such things are just not on, if not, then the fault would be with me and my husband for not bringing him up properly, not with the poor teacher.

I'm not saying that teachers should be officially sanctioned to take such action but I don't think they should automatically be sacked, either, in extreme cases.

If you could respond to being burned with a bunsen in any more measured way than just flinging out an indiscriminate arm, then I think you probably do have a different nervous system to me...

Can I just clarify the bunsen burner attack. All agreed it was an unprovoked attack. The pupil claimed he only meant to frighten/shock the teacher not to burn him. The teacher was fired because (against the advice of his union rep) he refused to say he slapped the boy in self defense. Instead, he admitted that in a split second of shock, anger and pain, he slapped the boy.

Secondly, can I clarify my point that I would deem it acceptable for a child of mine to be slapped by a teacher. I am against physical punishment either in school or at home. Only in extreme circumstances would I find this behaviour understandable (perhaps a better word than acceptable).

I'm not saying I would be happy with it. Just that I would not push for that teacher's dismissal because part of me would understand an impulse reaction to being violently attacked. Also, part of me would be so utterly disgusted at my child's behaviour that I couldn't possibly anyone else to carry the can.

and a three day suspension for that sort of attack is simply not good enough.

If it had happened on the street it would have been seen as an assault.

As I keep saying teachers have an issue with the lack of support that the SMT give. I would say that this would be a particularly good example. Granted it is extreme, but if trying to set fire to someone gets you 3 days suspension, what message does it send to the rest of the students? Does it make for a secure and same learning environment? I don't think it does.

We were in the crazy situation when 2 students set fire to the boys toilets, badly enough that the fire brigade had to put it out, we are not talking about a little jape here.

they didn't get suspended and the head later wondered why their behavior continued to deteriorate.

Tullusmater, I don't think that I have!

well, I would expect the teacher to be sacked for it - because he would be carrying the can for his own behaviour, not the boy's. I would make sure my child carried the can for his. It seems wonky to me that for a child to attack and adult is assault, but for an adult to hit a child across the head/face isn't assault. If it isn't self-defence, then it's assault.

Not you MB! Was referring to a post of Greensleeves further down...

Fio, if a teacher defended himself against a violent teenager who was physically bigger than him, I for one wouldn't be complaining. But I do insist on this distinction between "self-defence" and "retaliatory aggression" - and in both of the examples which are being discussed on this thread, the teacher was bigger than the child and didn't need to use violence to defend himself.

Well greensleeves, I think if a teenager tried to burn you in the street and you slapped him in return, nobody would be seeing you at fault.

how do you know the teacher was larger than the child with the bunsen?

I teach lots of kids who are much bigger than me from year 8 onwards. And also bigger than many members of staff.

I taught one lad who came back at the start of year 10 and was over 6 foot tall!

But I think that she would see herself at fault.

I do get your point Greensleeves, I do. But I don't know whether I, and I don't smack, nor have I ever responsed roughly to any ogf the physical attacks made on me in school, could hand on heart swear I would not have done what the burnt teacher did. It is such an extreme example. And therefore probably a bad one...

How rude of me to respond for you. I apologise

That's an interesting comparison cushioncover, does anyone know the legal position on that? (I don't). Presumably if I were a reasonably-built adult male and an 11yo tried to set fire to me in the street, I would be culpable if I twatted him around the head, but not if I knocked the blowtorch/whatever out of his hand, or pushed him away from me?

Diffiult to compare, really.

responsed? responded

mb if the child in question was particularly physically imposing, and the teacher diminutive /weaker, self-defence would be a more plausible defence. But still not excuse/explain a thump round the head though, because that's not an act of restraint, it's an act of aggression.