Guardian story - teacher has resigned :-(

[auntyspan]

I'm so furious. Someone who used to teach me has had to resign due to a scuffle involving a year eleven lad. The pupil apparently called him something racist and shoved him and when the teacher pushed him back he fell over, and consequently it's classed as an assault.

I'm appalled that a teacher of his calibre, experience and principals has had to resign. This kid has been in stacks of trouble, is a known trouble-maker and a bully, and is laughing about the fact he got a teacher 'sacked'.

This teacher is exactly the decent type of teacher I want teaching my kids - good disciplinarion and someone who genuinely cares about the kids. A rash moment has ruined his career.

very cross at the moment.

Greensleeves,

You seem to have deliberately set up a straw man argument here. You have chosen to interpret attitudes in a completely absurd way.

Why are you so determined to derail this discussion? Do you think that having no sanctions to enforce boundaries actually benefits schoolchildren?

LOL at the need to link to the definition of "straw man". Are you taking medication for your problem?

Perhaps I did post with the direct intention of 'derailing' the discussion, just for a laugh, and because I like upsetting people.

Or perhaps I was being entirely truthful about my reasons for posting what I did, and the points I made were valid ones, despite the fact that you and others disagree with them.

One thing's for sure though- I don't recall posting that having no disciplinary sanctions benefits schoolchildren or anyone else.

Well done, Greensleeves.

You've single-handedly managed to silence all the teachers on this thread with your devastating insights.

Gosh yes, I am clever to have disabled all their keyboards simultaneously with the power of my differing opinions

Grow up, fgs.

I'm not silenced! I was making tea.

I think I read a different MN to you actually Greensleeves, because I don't see much support at all for any kind of corporal punishment, or physical retaliation to assault.

And I don't think this is about appropriate responses to physical abuse by students. Everyone is agreed that hitting back is inappropriate. It's about what is an appropriate response to such an inappropriate response IYSWIM. And I don't know the full details of this case. But I wouldn't want to have blanket dismissal (and consequent loss of career, because that is surely what it is) for all cases.

Fair enough TellusMater, I can see your point - it does seem very catastrophic to lose one's job because of a moment's rage. However it's my view that teaching is one of those jobs in which you just can't lose your temper and lash out. I think it's right and just that this teacher lost his job for hitting a child across the head - that doesn't mean I feel nothing for teachers who are intimidated, threatened or assaulted (which in this instance plainly wasn't the case, the child in question was 11 and had verbally abused and 'pushed' the teacher).

I DO see quite a lot of 'PC gone mad', 'teachers' hands are tied, no wonder the kids are running riot', 'at least in the old days kids respected the teachers' attitudes on MN, which to me have a sinister undertone. It's no use muttering about 'sanctions' and 'something must be done' - suggest something then, if it isn't a return to traditional methods you're advocating.

Still, it's nice to engage with someone whose argument isn't based on the premise that I shouldn't have posted my opinion at all.

I also think that if we do have a profession where one moment's loss of control get us the sack the very minumum that we should expect is that we are allowed to work in conditions of safety and respect.

And we don;t have that atm

You're as entitled to your opinion as the next person, Greensleeves.

I disagreed with your posts, that's all.

Really? I rather thought your post implied that I had silenced others by posting, and therefore whouldn't have done so

Single act of violence (unless in self sefence) short term suspension of a serious nature. Ie not a half day job

when studenst are violent repeadly they should be placed in EBD units /PRU where the staff are properly trained to deal with them and have small enough staff/ student ratios to keep everyone safe

I agree with that mb, suspension should be automatic when a child has been violent or abusive towards anyone, child or adult. And EBD/exclusion units are all very well if they are staffed and resourced properly - and there aren't enough of them. A bit more joined-up thinking wrt to the most obviously reoffending kids would be good too - consent obtained from parents earlier on for cross-disciplinary meetings involving GPs/counsellors/teachers etc? I don't know, I'm not a teacher, but I think these suggestions are more constructive than the sort of indignant tabloidesque bluster that inevitably overwhelms this debate both here and elsewhere in the media.

Perhaps you read too much into things.

I agree, MB. The situation as it stands is not equitable.

Blimy, I've lost farking count of the time I've posted stuff like that greesleave, you must have missed those posts.

We bend over backwards to try to help kids like this out. We set up case conferences with parents (who very often fail to attend), we set up councelling, referals for anger management, and still we are lecutured into what we could so better and stand accused of 'tabloid bluster'

I do this job. I work with kids like this. Sometimes we get it sorted, and sometimes we don't. Some of these kids are so far off the curve (often because of all manner of shite that has happened to them in their sorry bloody lives....I 've posted that endless times as well you must have missed those posts too) that there is nothing we can do for them or with them.

you're not 'standing accused' of anything for heaven's sake, calm down! I didn't address my comments to you personally, as I've already said, more than once.

And no, oddly enough I haven't read, noted down and recorded each and every post you've written for future reference.

I'll leave this discussion I think, since it's clearly impossible to have a discussion without people descending into wounded histrionics all over the place

'but I think these suggestions are more constructive than the sort of indignant tabloidesque bluster that inevitably overwhelms this debate both here and elsewhere in the media'

sorry , silly me, I thought that this meant that you were saying that those of us discussing on this thread had ended up saying things that were 'indignant tabloidesque bluster' since you also said it was 'inevitable'

have a pleasent evening

well....if you take 'inevitable' to mean 'martianbishop' then who am I to argue

So do you think that of me?

Really, I'll be rather hurt oif you do.

But whatevere,

as I said, have a pleasent evening

Teachers! Your posts should have been more stimulating and engaging and thus preventing anyone f-ing off.

Love
SMT

LOL

That'll learn me!

And Greensleeves must write out 100 times that is not a viable alternative to the traditional full stop.

I think for teachers there is a constant tension between wanting to to the best for each individual child (especially when aware of what underlies some of the most challenging behaviour) and wanting to do the best for all the children you teach.

And there is a tension. Because a softly-softly approach can be effective in the long term with some troubled children, but it can be difficult short-term in terms of the message it sends to other pupils, and in the knock-on effects of that behaviour on other children.

And your point about getting parental consent and support for intervention raised a wry smile.

This is my special interest really. I have moved towards teaching 'difficult to manage' children in the mainstream. It is not straightforward...

Oops.

I have missed the shift to levity.

Sorry

Except you're not allowed to make them write lines these days. Pah! Bring back the birch!

tellus, agree totally.

I had to (sadly) remove a child from my class today. Sadly, because it meant that lesson was 'lost' for that child. But I had to do it for the other 15 kids in the class, many of whom have just as pressing problems and need the education just as much.

Greensleeves, that is a rather nasty ad hominem attack given that I have often posted about taking anti-depressents! Amazing that someone who takes such a hard line on corporal punishment is so willing to resort to that.

Nobody on this thread has suggested a return to the cane. Before you came along there was a sensible discussion about the challenges teachers face in schools. The measures you suggest are the obvious, easy answers. It is less clear how the culture can be changed so that most teachers can feel confident that they have the support of their senior management team and can get on with teaching.