Guardian story - teacher has resigned :-(

[auntyspan]

I'm so furious. Someone who used to teach me has had to resign due to a scuffle involving a year eleven lad. The pupil apparently called him something racist and shoved him and when the teacher pushed him back he fell over, and consequently it's classed as an assault.

I'm appalled that a teacher of his calibre, experience and principals has had to resign. This kid has been in stacks of trouble, is a known trouble-maker and a bully, and is laughing about the fact he got a teacher 'sacked'.

This teacher is exactly the decent type of teacher I want teaching my kids - good disciplinarion and someone who genuinely cares about the kids. A rash moment has ruined his career.

very cross at the moment.

I sincerely apologise for the medication comment Upwind. I had no idea you were taking anti-depressants.

Upwind - I think you took that a bit too personally.

I agree with what Greensleeves has been saying re a dichotomy in attitudes towards behaviour in schools whereby children are automatically violent and evil and teachers are always in the right. Violence of any type is not appropriate in a school environment, whether it comes from a pupil or a teacher. Of course, there are always situations where someone is going to lose control but whilst it may be understandable, that doesn't necessarily mean it is acceptable behaviour.

I don't think you'll find a single person on this thread who would say it was acceptable Bessie.

Bessie, no-one has said that the teachers behaviour was acceptable.

In addition most, if not all ,of the teachers posting on this thread have been most annoyed with the lack of support that we get from our own managers, and union officials.

None of the teachers have called for birching, or any form of corporal punishment. What we want are managers who support us when we are threatened or abused in our own class rooms. At the moment many teachers do not have this.

This is adding to the stress that staff feel on a daily basis. In addition, it frequently makes violent and disruptive pupils feels that they are untouchable; often tempting them to ever more unacceptable behaviour to the staff and other students in the classroom.

I don't want to push this, but as an example, from cushioncover earlier in the thread:

'Also, and I say this hand on heart, if (at 15/16) my son had assaulted a teacher and that teacher had retaliated with either a single slap or a push or shove then I would deem that perfectly reasonable'.

I wouldn't want to suggest that I know the best way to react in any given situation but surely it can't be helpful to say that any type of violence is reasonable; surely nobody should set out thinking that it is an ok response, whatever the circumstances. Like I said earlier, it is a loss of control which may be understandable, but that is not the same as it being ok.

To be fair bessie I think that is 'the' example rather than 'an' example.

and to be fair, a child was attempting to set a teacher on fire, which I think is quite an extreme case!

The child had a 3 day exclusion and the teacher was sacked. Do you think that is fair?

No, based only on the facts provided, I don't think that is particularly fair, but that is not the point. My point is that there seems to be an attitude that when pupils are violent it is never acceptable and when teachers are violent it is acceptable because they must have been provoked. I understand that some of you are teachers and you have had unpleasant experiences and that you and your colleagues have sometimes been treated unfairly but (in my opinion) that is a side issue that is more to do with the management of the teaching profession than the rights and wrongs of any given situation.

I don't think that a single teacher on this thread has said that the teacher in question's behaviour was acceptable.

I know that I haven't.

So I rather resent it being inferred that I have.

and your point about the problems often lying with managment mirror the comments of the teachers who have posted.

I don't think that a single teacher on this thread has said that the teacher in question's behaviour was acceptable.

I know that I haven't.

So I rather resent it being inferred that I have (as part of a general statement).

and your point about the problems often lying with managment mirror the comments of the teachers who have posted.

sorry about posting that twice. I wanted to claify one of my points. The computer then went rather dd on me, and locked me out of MN!

Actually I DO think a teacher who slapped a child across the face in a lesson deserves the sack, bunsen burner or no bunsen burner. The teacher is a trained professional adult, the child is....a child. There's a world of difference! I've been kicked and bitten and had blood drawn by children before (in various non-teaching capacities, admittedly, but I do have a central nervous system roughly comparable to that of a teacher) and not hit out - because I'm an adult and I don't hit the children in my care.

There's quite a bit of childish "us and them" thinking on here which I find rather depressing. It's not a question of "it's not fair, he started it and I got sacked, he only got three days exclusion". You're adults - it's horrific and I sympathise, but hitting/slapping/shoving the children and expecting to get away with it isn't a way forward.

The teacher mentioned in the OP hit an 11 year old child across the head in temper, according to the reports I read. The child was not presenting a serious physical threat to the teacher. The teacher wasn't defending himself, he lashed out and hit the child because he was angry. So he gets the sack. All well and good.

a bunsen burner on full is like blow torch.

I don't know whether the flame was on full or not, If it was, I do feel that was self defence. If someone came at me with a hot flame bunsen burner, or attacked another child I could defend myself/ the child.

amd none of the teachers posting have said that his behavior was acceptable.

I have also been kicked and bitten and slapped by children, but a hot flame bunsen is a different order of magnitude.

'safety flame' I hope I would have had the presence of mind to slap his/ her arm.

I don't think that a three day excusion for attempting to set someone on fire is acceptable.

mmb - I agree. 3 days is not enough of a punishment. I have a client who is currently on a life sentence in prison for setting his friend on fire - as a prank, not really thinking, etc, etc, when he was under 16 years old. What the child in the previous situation did is a very serious offence - ABH, GBH, etc? All punishable via the courts - can be a prison sentence for just the attempt to do it.

Schools need to take more action when these young people assault teachers. It should not be down to the individual teacher trying to make a stance on their own - which has been explained in this thread earlier is made very difficult. Svhools and unions need to start acting. They need more sanctions. And for serious offenders - and attempting to burn another person is vey serious IMO - there needs to be an automatic referral to the police for it to be investigated properly, as it would be if this scenario happened outside of the school gates.

I would never say it is okay for a teacher to hit a child. However there are definitely some circumstances when self defense may be required. And not all cases of teachers hitting out/defending themselves should result in automatic loss of job, career, livlihood - investigation yes, and an appropriate response when those findings come through.

I have not read any reports about the OP's situation. I cannot comment particularly on that situation.

I can't believe anyone is seriously expecting a teacher or anyone else to hold it together while being burned with a Bunsen burner.
Of course losing one's rag and hitting the perpetrator is the wrong thing to do, but my God, it would hurt.
If we only want people in the profession who can be burned with Bunsen burners and not react I think we need to put that into the selection process somehow - 3 seconds on full blast and you're still not reacting - great, you can be a teacher!

Part of the problem that we are setting up for society as a whole is that those children who do carry out serious assaults and have a minor punishment are effectively being sent a message that this behaviour is in some way 'not serious'.

And at some point they will leave school, or school premises , carry out the same action and end up, like your student Hula, in the courts.

I have lots of IEPs for children with EBD problems. I have a great deal of sympathy for them, as many have horrible home circumstances. In the IEPs we are given guidance as to how best manage their behavior. And I follow the dictates, for the good of all concerned (hopefully).

But it isn't enough to say to the teachers and other staff, 'Don't back this child into a (metaphorical) corner, always let them have a way out that saves face.' That is great as a management tool, but the kid is going to go out into the big wild world and is going to interact with people who haven't read his iep, and he will probably get into fights and may end up with you Hula, or in hospital or, god forbid, dead.

At the moment far to many schools put pressure on the teacher to hush up this sort of behavior. It isn't seen as good for the school image, too many exclusions will result in poor league table results. Teachers are often blamed for poor behavior, that arises out of things that are very often out of their control. And this hushing up of assaults doesn't help anyone. Least of all the violent child who leaves school with their needs in terms of behavior management unmet

Whilst not wanting to comment on the case in question, if my 11 year old son tried to burn a teacher with a busen burner and was struck across the face , I would be apologising to the teacher. Would be way more concerned about my son's behaviour than the fact that he had been assualted. Guess I'm old-fashioned (and I don't believe in corporal punishement at home or at school - but really, there are limits).

To me the two are not mutually exclusive. If my son had attempted to burn a teacher (or otherwise injure someone) I would be horrified, ashamed and determined to do something to demonstrate the gravity of the situation. The punishment meted out by the school would be the least of his worries. I would hit the roof, and so would dh.

However if an adult teacher hit my child (not restrained/manhandled in the course of restrained but actually struck) I would do my utmost to see that teacher removed from his position. It seems logical to me that all violence is wrong, and violence from an adult towards a child is much more reprehensible than the other way round. That's not to say I think children should be able to abuse their teachers and go unpunished. Of course they shouldn't.

I do think hitting a child across the head/face is particularly bad. It can do serious damage. Have you ever been hit very hard around the head by an angry man who is twice your size? It's no joke.

Again, I think Greensleeves is completely right here

would you honestly not see that a teacher might respond in reflex when attacked by a flame?

The hot flame of a bunsen burner is 1500 degrees C. If I saw that coming to me, I'd react by reflex. In self defence.

If I am expected to stand and not to defend myself, I think I'll quit the profession.

Blimey. Burning with a bunsen burner?

What would be an acceptable response?

Have to say that I think that is probably not the most representative example though. Mostly a bit of pushing and shoving - the occassional thrown stool and breast-fondling IME...

LOL at "so-called parents"

There seems to be some confusion about which incident involved hitting/pushing/bunsen burner/11yo. If a teacher pushed a child over in the course of trying to get the bunsen burner attached to the child away from his arm, I doubt anyone would make an issue of it. If the teacher however thumped the child around the head/slapped him across the face, if I were the (so-called?) parent involved, I would be saving a small percentage of my ire for the necessary task of getting that teacher the fuck out of my son's school. The rest would be reserved for making sure my son wished he had never been born and ensuring that he would never assault a teacher again.