JW mother refuses blood transfusion and dies leaving newborn twins

[WendyWeber]

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"We can't believe she died after childbirth in this day and age, with all the technology there is."

They all share the responsibility for her death - her family, his family, the church, all of them. Can they really believe they all did the right thing?

VeniVidiVickiQV...
"Actually - do you know what is REALLY awful?

Fuck the religion aspect, FUCK this woman's personal choices in her birth plan. FUCK all of it. There were things that could have been done by the maternity staff but they werent."

Do you know this for a fact, or are you just assuming?

Btw, the hospital should have warned her that carrying fraternal twins increased her risk of bleeding. I imagine they did; perhaps she just didn't realise quite how life-threatening it can be.

No, I'm no closer to being a JW than I was seven years ago when I started reading them.

I like various aspects of various religions, and I enjoy reading the magazines, but no plans to convert!

Ah, I used to read them too (before we moved- there have been no visits here) and I never converted, any mroe than I did readng the Qur'an etc etc etc for Uni. It's interesting, and if you're going tor ead the stuff in the news etc then you should read the other side too.

NMT - see my post about gleaning info from lissie's posts

The family couldn't have legally overruled her anyway so not sure why they are saying that they did.

haychee-from what i recall christians generally believe that god created humans with free will to choose whether to 'follow the right path',and that 'faith' wouldn't really be faith were it not tested.the general idea is the more you suffer on earth the greater your reward will be in heaven(or such like).

whoever was discussing weddings-i got married 2 weeks 3 days ago in the registry office.it cost £30 each for the licences back in august when we booked it,and £40 on the day.(with everything else i think it totalled about £700).

Congratulations, DeathbySnooSnoo!

This is a horrible thread, this family has suffered a terrible tragedy.

Xenia is talking a lot of sense.

themildmanneredjanitor that list you have got hold of is very, very dubious, some things are true and have been completely twisted so they sound barking and some things are complete fabrication.

robinredbreast. i'm not aware that i've commented that the mother did anythign right or wrong as i find the situation more tragic than anything else and the speculation and judgement pretty distasteful. what i find bitterly amusing is your 'have some respect' while showing none yourself. lissie's family have lost a friend, she'd long left the conversation and you might have kept your mouth shut and saved her some pain. but you didn't.

aitch lissie should not be disclosing this familys private details on such a public forum simple as that

I haven't read the whole thread, but I feel that a little objectivity is needed.

Firstly, women do still die in childbirth or because of childbirth (viz the lady who died at the Portland from pre-eclampsia two days after her twins were born; she certainly wasn't refusing standard medical treatment). Pregnancy and childbirth are still, despite wonderful medical advances, potentially hazardous. It is possible that even with a transfusion she might have died.

Goodness knows I am the biggest atheist around, but there are some very compelling reasons for refusing a transfusion, including the risk of disease transmission. I know some people who refuse allopathic medicine because they believe in Eastern medicine, homeopathy or herbs. It's a question of faith, you see. To believe that Western medicine is the only possible solution to illness and injury is in itself a belief. Just because you believe that accepting medical help is the only solution, does not make that the "right" belief.

Many people every year are killed by medical treatment that was supposed to make them better. Yes, actually killed. Does that mean that accepting medical treatment is a mad and risky thing to do? Ultimately, when you are sick and need help, you will either get better (with or without help) or you will not. Sometimes the interventions you accept help you to get better, sometimes they do not.

Now, I do not believe in the JW religion. I do not believe in any religion. If I did however, there is no reason to believe that I should not put my trust in something I believe will save me if that is what my fate is. Why not trust in God? Why should God not do a better job that some bleary-eyed hungover registrar with a sledge-hammer approach to curing?

The fact that we choose to place our faith in whatever we believe will hep us to heal does not open us up to sniping from people who believe otherwise.

Many of us on here would be the first to protest if we were forced to accept standard medical treatment against our will (I am thinking of the outcry over "needle-phobics" who have refused intervention in a crisis ( often childbirth) being declared unfit and effectively sentenced by a judge to be treated). The fact that the hospital respected her wishes is to be commended. Although we might wish that they had had a quicker JW plan in place, the fact is that they did not overrule her in her decisions and respected her right to accept or refuse treatment.

The fact that this lady has died and left her children before she even met them is a private tragedy. I daresay that was not what she had planned either. It is not anybody's business to be vilifying her and her choices.

Life is messy, untidy and hardly ever goes according to plan. Some of you need to deal with that in your own minds instead of sitting in your little cozy cocoon passing inappropriate judgment on other people.

This is a real tragedy, but it is not yours. She was Lissie's sister's friend however, so a little sensitivity wouldn't go amiss on this thread.

and can I just point out to you all that this is TOTAL negligence on the side of the hospital.

This girl had an epidural and was left for 5 hours without bp checks or any checks at all! She had no idea that she was bleeding as she couldnt feel anything.

By the time the nurses discovered that she was bleeding so profusely not even a blood transfusion could save her.

The hospital must be 'relieved' that the religion is taking over their negligence.

JWs do not want to die. They want to live and to say anything else is wrong. They just refuse blood but had the drs discovered the blood loss earlier they would have given her blood expanders and she would have lived.

collision, you appear to have more knowledge regarding this tragedy than the people who have posted here.

Is it first hand, second hand or just what you have heard?

For the women who are pregnant and read/post on these threads I feel your statements are somewhat alarming and inflammatory.

Unless you are absolutely sure of the facts and have proof of what you say, perhaps it would be better to to refrain from posting what may be libelous statements.

havbe been lurking, and noname took the words right out of my mouth...

Lissie, so sad to read about this and just wanted to say how out of order some of the comments here have been An awful situation.

Okay, I do not have time to read the whole thread but I do need to point a few things out.
I have this information as my sister is very good friends with the mother's sister.

She had to have an emergancy caesarean with the 2nd twin and the doctor involved severed her bowell and major blood vessels and although there was a cell saver device there, no one knew how to use it.

The hospital was negligent, pure and simple, nothing to do with faith or religion. Any other mother in those circumstances could have suffered the same fate so please stop judging this poor family

Well junkinmytrunk, you can surely understand my sceptisism when people claim to have the full story.

We have two supposedly accurate versions which are completely different.

I also read in paper yesterday that it took the hospital a while to find a cell saver and when they did no one knew how to use it and the staff were trying to research how to use it as she was dying, and that the husband is going to take legal action.
Jw are not on some suicide mission, it is just one treatment they dont accept but there is many others that they do accept that can be used instead.We dont know if Emma would of still died if she had other treatment or even a blood transfusion, but if it was true what I read then she would of had a very good chance if the hospital was on the ball.
Love to her family and all those who know her

Exactly orange.

Some maternity units in this country are in a dire state.

Just look at Northwick Park Hospital. It was in the news a little while back because it's unit was shut down because women kept dying there.

First it was the the mother and her family who were deemed by many to be the guilty party by virtue of their religion, now it's the hospitals staff who are guilty through negligence!

It's amazing the amount of 'information' or maybe that should be 'misinformation' that suddenly appears in the press and on threads, like this, purporting to be factual evidence.

I wasn't there, I don't know the full story, and only someone who was present, knows the full circumstances and has sufficient understanding of the complexities involved in dealing with massive obstetric haemorrhage and the means with which to treat it can enlighten us.

It may be that religous belief played a part, there may have been omissions in the care of the lady it may have been a combination of both.

We do have a system where the facts are brought into the public domain and blame apportioned where appropriate, ie post mortem, hospital investigations,enquiry, inquest etc

I have knowledge and experience of massive post partum haemorrhage and the protocols for when it occurs. It is a terrifying situation in which to be involved, irrespective of knowledge, expertise or experience. It is an Obstetric Emergency for which staff routinely attend updated training as part of their terms of employment.

Yes, people should ask questions and search for answers to reassure themselves, but until the true facts are known about this particulary tragic case, there will pregnant ladies whose fears are exacerbated by some remarks on this thread.

VVVQD there is a huge amount of information readily available on the internet
regarding the outcome of the enquiry into the maternal deaths at Northwick Park, it is very interesting and informative. Practise was changed as a result of the enquiry but sadly not all maternal deaths can be avoided as those results showed, more tragically, some possibly can.

Practice was changed yes. This was after government intervention because it was clear that the hospital wasnt learning from its mistakes after each death.

Statistics definitely indicate that it is more dangerous to give birth in some hospitals than others. This is with socio-economic and environmental issues excluded/taken into account.

In a country so advanced, the state of our maternity units and the kind of care practiced within is woeful.

I admit to being biased because of the very poor care received in my local maternity unit through both pgs and births. I've posted many times, but it involved a cocked up epidural - refusal to assist with delivery despite DD being clearly 'stuck', being rushed into a shower after DS without being allowed to fetch basic things like underwear, soap,knickers or a towel. I had to dry myself with a dirty gown that i found screwed up on the floor of the shower room. Blood all over bathrooms/toilets/floors on the wards. A drip that I was told had to stay in but wasnt switched on - all night long. Being admitted for PE but being "forgotten" after my notes "went missing" and being left in a waiting room for 4 hours until 9.30pm having been there all day since 11.30am without food or drink. Then, not being monitored AT ALL through the night,and seeing my notes 'doctored' by nurses to indicte my BP had been taken when it hadnt. No visit from mw after DD born for 10 days etc etc. If this basic level of care cannot be conducted for simple cases such as mine - what hope have other more serious patients got?

I meant to add that, under the circumstances - I think it is important for mums-to-be to be aware that if they are in hospital, and they arent being looked after or regularly checked at all times - they need to know that this isnt right.

They need to know that asking for help DOESNT make them a nuisance (despite some mws making you feel like you are), and that you shouldnt have to wait for them to come to you if you feel you need help or that things arent right. THAT is their JOB.