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JW mother refuses blood transfusion and dies leaving newborn twins

432 replies

WendyWeber · 05/11/2007 08:59

report

"We can't believe she died after childbirth in this day and age, with all the technology there is."

They all share the responsibility for her death - her family, his family, the church, all of them. Can they really believe they all did the right thing?

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 05/11/2007 22:30

if you decided to walk out on your kids because of your religion, olala, in your particular case i'd support that 100%.

madamez · 05/11/2007 22:30

Well I despise all religions and find them all actively toxic at bottom, which a case like this sort of demonstrates (what a f**ing pointless waste of a life).

HOWEVER the idea of forcing any kind of medical treatment on anyone against their wishes is not a very comfortable one. And the argument that she should have accepted treatment against her principles for the sake of her babies is not very comfortable either: women in general are far more reproached than men are for doing risky things when they have children, to say they should not be allowed to take risks or indeed choose to die is not thatfar from saying that women's lives should be regulated and controlled because they are baby-producers not autonymous human beings.

And the bottom line (lines?) is that the Sun is quite happy to have a pop at a minority superstition when equally gruesome things are done in the name of other superstitions and, for instance, shitloads of airtime is given to the opinions of celibate old men on what women should be permitted to do with their bodies on the grounds of superstition.
And there is existing medical technology which can save JW patients in the event of haemorrhages, which appears to have not been used in this case, perhaps through human error. ANd, really, it's perfectly possible that the woman in question would have died even if she had been given an actual blood transfusion: it happens (and we don;t know the full medical details of her particular case).

This one is extra upsetting because (it appears) that the patient was unconscious when the decision had to be taken as to how to treat her, and though she had signed a form, it's reasonable to assume that she hadn;t actually really expected to need a transfusion - it's not that common after all, not a standard part of childbirth.

ANd FWIW were I a surgeon in charge of these kind of cases, or someone with the power of making medical legislation, I would insist that when any patient has to sign a consent form about something where superstitious and cultural scruples may be involved, that the patient, wherever possible, signs the form in a private consultation with the medical professional, which remains confidential (unless the relevant emergency occurs). THis might perhaps save a few lives of people who have paid lipservice to their family or partner;s superstitions but actually don't fancy risking death for them.

haychee · 05/11/2007 22:31

olala does have a point.

But, having listened to lissie, and hearing more about the woman, emma, i can see more clearly.

It wasnt the right choice, and had she not been so naive then she may still be here.

Im still shocked at the fact that she initially refused, but her family tried to persuade her/over rule her choice. I thought that they just wouldnt do that because of the religion, so it seems their some hope of human decency and saneness within strict religion after all.

Lisse, im very sorry for you. This must be awful for you. Its a very sad affair whichever way you see it.

AitchTwoOh · 05/11/2007 22:31

look, i don't know why there's a problem with JW's having blood transfusions, but there is some merit in not having one. ask the many people who got HIV from bad blood transfusions. there's no merit in kosher law either (other than if you live in a land without fridges) but people of faith observe it. a lot of these laws have historical bases which are perfectly valid, after that it becomes an article of faith.

expatinscotland · 05/11/2007 22:35

excellent post, madamez.

i agree.

olala · 05/11/2007 22:36

they still overruled her wishes after much debate. I can't, for a moment, understand.

olala · 05/11/2007 22:37

but why would any religiong purporting to care for its followers even ASK this of them?

haychee · 05/11/2007 22:38

I agree too with madamez

I think the problem with it for me is the consequences of her choice on her los. Its not the choice itself and her subsequent passing, but the impact of that on those that need her, her dependants.

Greensleeves · 05/11/2007 22:39

This is so, so sad

Lissie, you must feel awful reading all this. Your poor sister must be devastated.

Olala's apology sounds completely sincere and heartfelt to me (speaking as someone who sometimes blunders in and has to apologise later)This is a topic which arouses strong feelings on all sides.

The father of those babies, the pain must be so intense. I hope he has lots of support around him.

StressTeddy · 05/11/2007 22:39

I'm sure you'll come back to me and say you have every right to your views but

Please, please is there any chance we could let this thread go now??

I think it has hurt quite a few people and it would be wise to leave it alone now

Thank you

WendyWeber · 05/11/2007 22:41

See last 2 paragraphs here

"the right of the newborn baby to have a family life overruled the mother's right to refuse treatment"

amen to that

OP posts:
olala · 05/11/2007 22:42

amen also.
I'm so sorry again.
Really I am.
I will think about this all night now

madamez · 05/11/2007 22:44

Stressteddy: i think in this case the issues raised are important enough to need a lot of discussion (personal responsibility, autonomy, freedom of choice with regard to medical treatment etc). No one is trying intentionally to hurt those posters who have a personal connection with the poor woman, but the feelings of someone like Olala (and OK I'm making a bit of a leap here) who sounds like she has been directly hurt and traumatised by someone making a similar decision on the grounds of belief of some kind, are equally valid.

orangehead · 05/11/2007 22:46

Our local hospital has a blood salvage machine only because the local jws bought it, not just for they use but anyones. I have been in involved with many cases of jws and they is many alternatives now available and there hospital liason commitee works very hard to get the best medical treatment for them. Many doctors are now admitting the alternatives actually work better but also patients recover quicker than when they have blood transfusions but unfortunately they cost alot more money. Sadly in some cases people die from massive blood loss wheather they have transfusions or not, its just that if they dont people are quicker to jump on the bandwagon and blame when they dont actually know what treatment they had or knowing all the facts

haychee · 05/11/2007 22:47

I dont understand alot of reigions, they never seem to add up to me. Why would a heavenly body, a god cause so much suffering to so many people involved in different types of disasters and accidents.

Why, like olala says, would a god ask a fit and healthy young woman to deny herself and deny her los of any future with eachother?

It doesnt seem right that followers of religion who devote thier lives to loving a god are made to suffer like this. Is this their reward for their devotion?

haychee · 05/11/2007 22:50

I once nursed a young mother and her dp. The mother ad been involved in a road accident and her 8wk old dd had died as a result, died at the scene.

This young couple were religious, they were devout christians. How on earth can they possibly still believe their is someone "up there" looking down on them and watching over them, when they have had the dearest thing taken from them in such an awful way?

AitchTwoOh · 05/11/2007 22:52

yes, they're going to heaven and you're not so ner ner.

AitchTwoOh · 05/11/2007 22:53

how do you know that they didn't struggle to make their peace with that for the rest of their lives?

Greensleeves · 05/11/2007 22:53

The older I get the more I think - if there is a god, he needs a fucking good kicking.

LadyVictoriaOfCake · 05/11/2007 22:53

i am going to assume you arent religious at all haychee?

during dh long illness i prayed hard. as did his mum. and lots of jw's for him. they still do.

haychee · 05/11/2007 22:57

Dont get me wrong, if it works for you in a time of need, gives you some comfort etc then fine, thats good, thats positive.

But in this case, why would this womans god, take her from her los?

Why did the christian mother have her 8wk old taken from her?

Why did thousands of people die in the tsunami?

Why would a god do all this?

I woudnt say i dont believe (never say never), but i do struggle to believe.

sweetkitty · 05/11/2007 22:57

All I can think about is her poor husband and children, I don't care about religion all I think about is that a poor woman died having her beloved babies and that is truly tragic.

LadyVictoriaOfCake · 05/11/2007 23:00

because the world is a cold and harsh pal;ce lissie.

jW's belive this world will be destroyed and then god will make it a pradise on earth. they belvie we are in the end days now.

i need to belive in a being of some sort, i am not a jw, but still pray and seek comfort in god. plenty of people do.

LadyVictoriaOfCake · 05/11/2007 23:00

not lissie,i meant haychee (sorry lissie, was worried about you when i typed that last post)

TheQueenOfQuotes · 05/11/2007 23:02

"I think when a simple blood transfusion will save your life,"

but there was no guarantee that it would have saved this poor girls life?!?

And what of my friend who knowing that keeping her DC3 could result in her death continued with the pg regardless - she already had 2 young girls - what if she'd been too late for the treatment after her DS was born? She would have left 3 children without a mother. She wans't in the slightest bit religious when all of this occured.

I personally think some of the "rules" that JW live by are stark raving bonkers however I fully respect their decisions to believe in them, and am utterly gobsmacked by some of the completely outrageous comments on this thread.

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