Boris Johnson - disgusting or what?

[beansprout]

What an insulting idiot. Shame on him.

Sorry, had no emotion other than shock at Diana's death. Did nothing because I felt I ought to

if you follow the logic of that argument it suggests that if you can't mark the death of each and every person that dies to exactly the same degree (which of course you can't) then you should remember none of them. I think it would be a sad world if we decided that showing sympathy and respect (not grief) was somehow invalid if you don't know the person.

Of course part of the shock and reaction to ken bigley's death was a wider realisation at how grim our world has become.

forget bloody diana - I agree that that was an incident of people showing "grief" and they didn;t know here. that's different to respect or sympathy.

sorry "know her"

Every month or so we seem to lose one or more of our armed forces over in Iraq and other countries. Many of their deaths are in horrendous circumnstances too. Yet, their deaths are not given such attention - no books of condolences, no 2 minutes silence, no black arm bands. I don't see why these deaths are any less significant than Kenneth Bigley's death.

I haven't read or heard most of what Boris has said/written. I don't intend too. I therefore cannot comment on that at all.

Here here Hula

hulababy -read my previous post:
"if you follow the logic of that argument it suggests that if you can't mark the death of each and every person that dies to exactly the same degree (which of course you can't) then you should remember none of them. I think it would be a sad world if we decided that showing sympathy and respect (not grief) was somehow invalid if you don't know the person."
You can't mark everyone's deaths - doesn't marking at least some of them make us MORE aware of the preciousness of life as a whole.

I just seem to be repeating myself on this thread

I don't think that sympathy and respect have to be public, do you? I have nothing but sympathy for the family of this man. I only respect people that I know something about, and no disrespect to the man, but I don't know him. I wouln't have shown the disrepect that BJ showed to the people of Liverpool by singling them out, but that is a different issue.

But then - just for the sake of the argument - why should we 'forget bloody Diana'?

Why are you saying it is 'different' and acceptable for people to show respect/sympathy/grief over KB and not over her? You could say she died in a shocking and horrible way, leaving behind a family who loved her. What's the difference then?

His death was the most awful thing. But many deaths are awful. When we mark rememberence sunday we are marking the sacrifice that people made to give us our freedom. I would hope that we would pray (wish, affirm, whatever) that such things would never happen again. I would think that all people killed in violent acts of terror should be afforded the same respect on rememberance Sunday. But I feel that should be enough.

ok moomina the difference is that originally someone was comparing the "hysterical grief" shown for ken bigley with that shown for diana. my opnion for what its worth is simply that the two are not comparable. diana's death did seem to cause grief in people who don't know her - I find that as odd as everyone else here.
My point was that I didn't see any example of hysterical grief for kb only sympathy respect whatever. And I just don't agree with the argument put forward by hulababy and others that "why should kb's death (or others) get singled out above anyone else" - they shouldn't be they do, for lots of reasons and I for one think it was sad if no deaths AT all were in some way marked. But I'm not talking about showing "hysterical grief" I want to make that clear, The whole diana thing was completely different.

I agree totally about rememberance sunday hmb.
but earlier you said:
"How many minutes silence for the 340 people who dies each day from amoking related diseases, those that dies from CF, or heart disease, from car accidents.
Each of those people were loved, and each death is a tragedy. the way the man died was horrific, but it doesn't make the loss any different. Each death is a tragedy, we don't mark the others. "

Are you suggesting we mark all of these deaths or none of them?

I haven't seen the Boris Johnson article so can't comment on that.
My feeling on the way the UK seems to have changed in terms of how people show grief is that there has been a shift from the personal show of respect: a handwritten letter of condolance, the street closing the curtains, when someone we actually know has died - many of these traditions have gone yet there is a tremendous tendency to join in the vogue for mass sentiment with flowers piled at street shrines etc. It seems to me like mawkish show rather than genuine respect, IMHO.

Agree 100% turquoise.

A local lad was killed in a car about 5 years back on one of the roads out of town, and every year on the anniversary there are some flowers at the spot where he died. I don't find that mawkish - I didn't know him but one of my daughters did and when we drive past it reminds her and we talk about him.

If it is done by the people who knew the peopson who died then I don't think it is mawkish. But is it is done by others, who didn't, I think that it is.

I really liked Boris on "Have I got News For You".

He shouldn't have targeted Liverpool in the way he did, it was a really stupid remark. I think it was just ill judged, unlike the disgraceful coverage in The Sun newspaper following the loss of life at Hillsborough.

Don't see anything wrong in books of condolence - if you don't like them, don't sign them.

Boris will become the butt of some VERY good jokes in Liverpool - and I suspect he'll take it all in good stead.

"the vogue for mass sentiment with flowers piled at street shrines etc" when this happens isn't it usually because someone people know have been killed in an accident. I repeat (until blue in the face) that the diana incident was different and totally weird IMO. The issue of 2 mins silence for KB, bomb victims, 9/11 or whatever is totally different and is not to to with mawkish grief

When Diana died I worked around the corner from Kensington Palace. I did go with a friend out of curiosity. It was very strange as there were loads of people sobbing and crying. My friend and I took some flowers (not sure why now but they were lovely flowers-the trees looked amazing as they were all covered with flowers and candles- it was an incredible scene). My friend wrote "Diana Princess of Whales" on the gift tag- I pointed out that she was the Princess of a small country- not a bunch of sea mammals and we started to fall around laughing. At which stage a man appeared with a huige microphone shoved it in my face and said 'Turkish TV- tell me what do you think of death of Princess". I said "oh it's very sad" and then roared with laughter as my friend fell about on the ground clutching her sides.

It was one of the strangest episodes of my life. Kensington Gardens did look incredible- especially the trees - really amazing. We did stand out laughing though.....

I really don't want to dismiss genuine emotion or any way that someone would choose to express that emotion. I just regret the passing of the more personal touch, and the way the media seems to have led this.

The way the media reflects into our homes the horrors that exist in the world changes the way we react to them. However, I am always conscious that there are many millions of dreadful things which exist but which are simply not newsworthy. So I agree that sometimes we extend our reactions to very specific incidents in a way which seems totally at odds with reality. I often think that if I, god forbid, were subject to such a tragic loss, wouldn't appreciate a bunch of strangers muscling in on my own personal grief. I would understand there being those who were genuine in their empathy, but also there are many more drama-merchants (sadly) who join in for the look of the thing. I think we don't like to face up to the fact that many people enjoy the drama of a public spectacle, as opposed to being genuinely empathetic.

I once saw an italian man describing the loss of his family during a flood, swept away from his arms never to be seen again. His whole family. He managed to tell the story with dignity and no tears. In the same programme, an American family were describing the loss of their home (no loss of life) to a hurricane and they couldn't get through one sentence without breaking down. Call me cynical, but when you are the media generation it's almost like you have to react in the way you perceive the "watching millions" are going to appreciate - the more drama the better. That's my thought on why 'public grief' has evolved in this form over recent times.

Onto Boris though - I do like him, and didn't read his article - but the politicians of this world are the first to exploit the wiles of media coverage, so they probably shouldn't ever criticise the public for their reactions to the same influence.

I don't see what's wrong with mourning for people you don't know. I think it's a basic human need. You only have to read the descriptions of the mass grief at the death of Eleanor of Provence in the fourteenth century and those of Caroline of Brunswick and Princess Charlotte in the eighteenth centuries, to know that the need to mourn, to grieve, to show sympathy and solidarity, is not a product of the modern mass media. That's why some cultures still have paid mourners. And why we go and see films and plays that make us weep and wallow in their misery. I know that's a different phenomenon, but I think somewhere along the line it's connected to the mass outpouring of grief for strangers. I don?t see why it should be considered so offensive. Very often it is people who have their own private griefs which are not dignified with attention, who turn up to these grief-orgies. Their grief for the subject of the grief orgy may not be genuine, but I suspect their grief for their own lives is. And this is the one time in our culture when they may be allowed to express it. Sad state of affairs, really.

I like old Bozza. But he's wrong about lots of things. Most of all, to be bullied into apologising for publishing something he believed in.