Boris Johnson - disgusting or what?

[beansprout]

What an insulting idiot. Shame on him.

this is interesting - hmb, you're echoing my thoughts almost entirely.

I do wear a poppy (if I'm around when they're selling them), but I also find this public grief thing odd, and occasionally insulting.

Sobernow - why do the alternatives have to be between stiff upper lip and everybody getting upset and having 2 mins silences when someone nobody knew dies (or when a member of the royal family dies, for that matter)? I'm all for people being supportive and being "in touch" with their emotions, but I felt the reactions to Ken Bigley's murder, the Soham case and Diana were all way over the top.

After the Soham case I remember thinking, what about all the other people who've lost children recently? It must have made them feel worse.

or all the other tpople who dies on dianas death day iyswim

But what were these reactions to Ken Bigley's murder that you're talking about? I'm aware of people being shocked but I'm not aware of people grieving for him. I'm aware of people wanting to show their respect to his family but I'm not aware of people wallowing in grief about it

I asked the same question tinker earlier and no one has answered it. Seriously were there hysterical reactions to ken bigley's death?

soupy - re: reaction to soham - but don't these things happen naturally? aren't they a genuine desire to register sympathy. yes it probably is hard for others in this situation who have lost children but that doesn't make it wrong.

diana was a totally different kettle of fish, I think everyone agrees that reaction to her death was nonsense!

oh bum I mean SP not soupy, and I meant {it doesn't make outpourings of sympathy} wrong

I also think the outpouring of grief over Ken Bigley was exaggerated, but I suppose sometimes our grief over people like Ken Bigley and the Soham-girls symbolises a grief over the sometimes sick society we live in, the loss of innocence and childhood (in the case of Soham).

Well, I have never had two minutes silence for anyone other than rememberence sunday, which is, I think, something different. How many minutes silence have there been for individual forces personel killed in Iraq, or for that matter for Iraqi people? How many minutes silence for the 340 people who dies each day from amoking related diseases, those that dies from CF, or heart disease, from car accidents.

Each of those people were loved, and each death is a tragedy. the way the man died was horrific, but it doesn't make the loss any different. Each death is a tragedy, we don't mark the others.

Dh and I have lost friends, in sudden awful training accidents. Sometimes the family get the body back, sometimes they don't. We grieve, and so do the families but I wouln't expect people outside to do so. It wouldn't be real.

My difficulty over this is that our grief for things happening in the UK or to British citizens are so much stronger than for tragedies happening to people abroad. The further away from us, the less grief I think.

The thing is hmb I do see your point but there are plenty of other incidents of two minutes silences; victims of IRA bombs, 9/11 etc etc Your argument seems to suggst it's all or nothing. We grieve for those we know personally and nothing else? Of course there are those who equally deserve recognition but don't get it but does that mean we do it for no one?

and in some ways doesn't the marking of a tragedy by 2 mins silence or whatever mean that we are reminded of the value of ALL lives?

We've had 2 minutes silence for quite a few things - September 11th, I'm sure we had it at work for Beslan. Hopefully we won't be forced to have it for Lynda Lee-Potter.

But I do think the nature of his death does make it different. It did make people feel, rightly or wrongly, involved because there was almost realtime footage of a man begging for his life although his murder seemed inevitable. And his family's please for mercy (which had to played out in public to be at all effective) couldn't help but draw people into the situation.

I will have no problem whatsoever if the people of Dublin feel the need to pray or do whatever they want to show they care about Margaret Hassan

The bottom line is that I don't think that you can grieve for someone that you don't know.

You can feel all other sorts of emotions but not grief, since grief is personal.

When I saw, and listened to, people at the time of Diana's death saying they were 'devistated', I wanted to give than a good slapping tbh.

To have respect is one thing, a good thing, but to wallow in the emotion of the situation, taking the grief of another is not the same thing. To waer a black arm band it , to my mind, taking someones grief. Wearing a black arm band has always been a symbol of mourning. How can you mourn someone and then play a game of football? Bandwagonitis I'm afraid.

I never consider a minutes' or 2 minutes' silence a time to think about the targetted event, more time to reflact on all tragedies. No-one is forcing anyone to acknowledge it

Someone once said to me during the first Gulf War (in which dh flew fast jets), 'I know what you must be feeling' to which I replied, 'no you f well don't'

I think he chose a bad time. I agree with him about all the mass hysteria, but he shouldn't have critized the Liverpool people right now. Some of 'em might have meant it.

but hmb, my point is that it's not necessarily grief that these actions are demonstrating but respect. Forget Diana, it was a nonsense. But 2 mins silences, books of condolences: respect and sympathy surely. No it's not fair that everyone who dies doesn't get the same treatment but that's life. Doesn't it make us MORE aware of the preciousness of everyones lives?

Who has shown "hysterical grief" at the death of ken bigley?

I doubt that the footballers were in mourning tbh.

and someone saying "I know how you feel" when they don't is an entirely different issue.

hmb, I'm sorry but are you reading my posts:
"I doubt that the footballers were in mourning tbh. "
hasn't the discussion moved on from that

And to my mind that is just what was done when people take on the trappings of grief that they don't feel.

But wearing a black arm band, i something at berieved families do, not people how have never met the person.

hmb - I'm not mourning when I wear a poppy, I'm showing respect for those who died on the 2 WW's. A black armband is the same thing. It may have been the case that it was a sign of mourning but it's symbolism has changed to one of showing respect.

I agree kr, still don't know where these 'outpourings of grief' were for Ken Bigley. That's the point I was trying to make earlier - B Johnson wrote the article as though that were true. It wasn't

fine, but you said it was wrong of people to show "grief" for people they don't know. You said:
"Well, I have never had two minutes silence for anyone other than rememberence sunday, which is, I think, something different. How many minutes silence have there been for individual forces personel killed in Iraq, or for that matter for Iraqi people? How many minutes silence for the 340 people who dies each day from amoking related diseases, those that dies from CF, or heart disease, from car accidents."

I'm not talking about 'grief'- I still haven't seen any example of "hysterical grief" over ken bigley - only respect and sympathy.

I'm asking you - do we mark nothing, do we show no sympathy, no respect. No it's not fair that every death isn't marked but it's not realistic and is it better that we mark none?

Ken Bigleys death was barbaric - but he went to Iraq knowing the situation and of his own volition. I think the 2 mins silence and book of condolence is OTT. Our soldiers went to Iraq on a lie and ill equipped. The saddest thing is there is a father whose son died in Iraq and he's absolutley distraught about it and so angry with the government that I know he has made protests about it, climbing lamp posts trying to get noticed - but I don't even know HIS name - or more importantly his sons name - who died for what exactly?
Cherie Blair turns the waterworks on when her son goes to bloody Bristol for gods sake!

If it is honest and spontaneous, then it is something that people feel they must do, to meet a particular need at that time, fine I dislike the drive that some people have to then conform. As I said, I dislike the thought that people feel they should' waer a poppy, rather than want to. What would have happened if one of the footballers had not wanted to wear the black arm band. He would have been pilloried by the press for being 'unfeeling'. How many of those who signed for Diana, or the QM ot Ken Bigley doid it because they were driven to do so, and how many because they felt that they should*?