Asylum seekers in small boats.

[randomer]

What is so dreadful about France that somebody would put unaccompanied children in a dingy and send them to England? I just can't begin to imagine what is going on. Is it a brutal regime in other European countries?

I should add that this isn't some racist rant. I understand that England and English is a draw for many, they may have relatives here and so on.

Because racism and xenophobia are fairly mainstream in the uk.

@randomer

Thank You *@disorganised* squirrel for your first hand knowledge.

I too, work with asylum seekers, including those for whom French is a main language. It must be really shit there.

If you work with asylum seekers then why would a majority white, middle class forum of primarily British people know better than them?

I have no idea what you are saying?

Presumably because it’s nice to see someone sharing first hand knowledge rather than Daily Mail rehash?

Asylum seekers who head to the UK generally do so because they have a connection to this country. For example, they may have relatives living here who they believe could help them to find work and housing. They may also speak a little English.

Imagine you had to flee your home and move to a foreign country tomorrow. Without a job or home to go to. Or, more likely, you were advising your 18 year old son who needed to flee. Wouldn't you pick somewhere that you had relatives who could help you initially, and where you could speak a bit of the language?

Imagine you then arrived in France, after a long journey in dangerous conditions, then you were faced with the dreadful conditions in the camps there. You cannot speak French and the authorities are hostile. You would probably feel even more desperate to get to the place where you have family, and the possibility of a decent life.

Anyone who thinks countries where women's rights differ from here and where women are groped m ore than the UK do not exist must be wilfully blind surely. That does not mean every young man from North Africa will do that of course but there have certainly been problems over that. The bottom line is people are at huge risk cross the Channel and it is illegal too so should be stopped. We also have 16m more people in the UK than when I was born which is a massive increase. It is the current population of the whole of the Netherlands just about.

As I said you can sneak in or come on a tourist/student visa to get through immigration then apply once here. There are very few ways of getting here in a straightforward way. How can you then tack on about the routes being illegal???

I personally have been “groped” more in the uk. But then I carry my white privilege wherever I go.

I personally have been “groped” more in the uk. But then I carry my white privilege wherever I go

Then you are very, very lucky. I’ve actually lived in the Middle East and wherever there is not strict segregation between the sexes (as in the Gulf), this is a real problem.

Egypt is the worst for this, but happens in other North African and Levant countries. It doesn’t matter if you are white or not, if you are modestly dressed or not, if you are Muslim or not, you will be stared at, followed, harassed, yelled at, and groped.

It makes me wonder if you’ve ever been to non-Gulf Muslim countries.

@MangoFeverDream Yes, I’ve lived in the Middle East and as it happens The Far East and Europe. I have never been “groped” in the Gulf but as I said perhaps that’s because I’m white rather than luck.

I’m sure SOME people (and let’s be clear I’m talking about men) behave appallingly from every country and religion. I don’t however think that the refugees/immigrants I know (many) from the Middle East fit this profile.

That’s one persons experience (albeit rather more informed than the average mumsnetter described so disparagingly up thread). It is however FACT rather than ideas gleaned from the Daily Mail.

What is the message you are trying to send? Is it that Arabs/Persians/North African Muslims are inherently bad/dangerous? Is it only the men that you feel this about? You say you’ve lived in the Middle East, were the majority of the people you knew predatory and frightening?

They come here and take our jobs, get handouts and grope our women.

That'll be it.

Reading this back I’m struck by the fact that you feel I’m “lucky” to have been groped by one demographic rather than another. . What fresh mumsnet madness is this?

Are we really more welcoming to asylum seekers than France?

There are many practical reasons why people want to come here: many will already speak some English, have family members here and think that it will be easier to find a job.

But we also have a right wing press that demonises immigrants, Brexit and a fair number of xenophobes...

I do think France also has a massive issue with racism/xenophobia and integrating immigrants. I think Britain was more welcoming to foreigners and willing to integrate them especially in the cities. But now I am not sure this is the case anymore.

It is madness though that we have had this problem for years in Calais and that the French and the Brits have not come up with a system to process applications and deal with these people better. It is just lack of political will and pandering to the xenophobes that's poisoning this debate...

I’ve lived in the Middle East and as it happens The Far East and Europe. I have never been “groped” in the Gulf but as I said perhaps that’s because I’m white rather than luck

As I said, the Gulf has strict segregation between the sexes so it’s not much of a problem there as it is in the Maghreb and Egypt. So it’s no wonder you didn’t have a problem if you weren’t in North Africa.

I’ve also lived for years in East Asia. Personally, I felt way more unsafe in the MENA, outside the Gulf, than in East Asia. I’ve had scary incidents and experienced groping in both, unfortunately, but the scale is worse in North Africa.

What is the message you are trying to send? Is it that Arabs/Persians/North African Muslims are inherently bad/dangerous?

I’m saying that culturally, they do have less respect for women. It’s frightening behaviour if you’ve ever experienced it. The Gulf enforces strict segregation which mitigates it, but North Africa does not.

Of course NAMALT in the MENA (I cant believe I even have to say this 🙄) but taharrush is a real problem. Mass groping during public events is another real problem there and never happened in Europe until Cologne.

I travel a lot (I mean a lot) and you know where you can travel solo as a woman, and where you cannot. Local culture dictates this to a large degree.

I should also say that it was young men who groped and sexually harassed me. So of course I think they are much higher risk than women and elderly people. I am much more sympathetic to their plight and think they would cause far less problems than young men who’ve had no background checks or any sort of assessment.

I think English is the main reason indeed.
I do think that the lack of ID cards in UK is a factor indeed, at least for those with wrong doing in their minds. I do remember one refugee that commited hate crimes quite a few years ago had up to three identities and assylum seeker cards
And the benefit system, I think it does play a role too.
In my country of origin, Spain, I recognise that is more difficult, as they will have to work rather swiftly to be able to live. Most of our immigratants come from South America or north Africa, and they already speak really good Spanish or they can get by. For the ones I have known, they become quite well integrated after a few years. Around fifteen years or so back lots of them got fully legal status if they could prove residence and working history. I think they are closer monitored in that aspect. You are not allowed to leave your house without your ID (it is actually an offence if you do, though usually the police just accompanies you to get it if you happen to be asked for it and do not have it on you). If you are temporary resident, permanent, or national citizen the cards have different colours. No bank account, rent, work, doctor, school or anything without one of those. Finger prints are included. Still some manage to fool the system. And they automatically know that those are indeed more than dodgy.
Regarding Calais, it would not exist if they were not obsessed with coming to UK. It is not the point of entry into France.
I may find myself in a desperate situation one day, but I am not sure I would send my daughter in a boat to the sea. I think I would stay with her in France and try to addapt. At least they have been rejected already for assylum in France? And they are facing deportation? It would have to be a case of certain death or extreme danger for me to risk her life at sea.

I may find myself in a desperate situation one day, but I am not sure I would send my daughter in a boat to the sea. I think I would stay with her in France and try to addapt.
What if she was in the uk and you were in France? Would you live decades without her? Would you let her life be motherless?

(Nb in the uk until you have refugee status you CANNOT work in the uk legally)

I’m saying that culturally, they do have less respect for women. I don’t think that’s true.

@Itisbetter I was thinking we were both in France and I was sending her to the UK. To let her live away from me, if she has a better life like this, yes I would. If she is in danger of death or grievous danger, I said then it would be a possibility as a desperate resort. I would rather endanger my life than hers though.
There was some mention of children in those boats on their own, not with their parents

Some people are not really coming from France. It is rather via France as they share the longest coastline with the shortest crossing to England.

I would be concerned about France and the safeguarding of children on French soil. Trafficking as well. So, the safety of people while on French soil However, other than that, I'm not sure how much a matter it is for the French state when people are travelling into the UK. They aren't directing people towards Calais and onto England.

A complex issue that is not helped by confusion and generalisations.

One point is very simple. When the boats are in British waters, they and their occupants are the responsibility of the UK.

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency are responsible for the safety of everybody in a vessel in UK waters

www.gov.uk/government/organisations/maritime-and-coastguard-agency/about

I suspect the same applies to France when the boats are in French waters.

A national ID card/ national service number appears to stringently control access to services. Certainly true for one European country I am familiar with. May be true of France, too.

Yes, so if we can have the royal navy in French waters and turn the boats around before they get into UK waters then we can help save the lives of women and children (and the young men) and it would be win win all round.

I’m saying that culturally, they do have less respect for women. I don’t think that’s true

Are you saying that all cultures are equally misogynistic? Because that’s what it sounds like to me. And I reject that. You can reduce misogyny with awareness, education, and a legal system that enforces laws that protect women. All countries have work to do on this, but some way more than others.

You don’t have to take it from my personal experience. All you have to do is watch videos from Iran where women are cursed and spat upon for not wearing hijab (not morality police but just random guys in the street) or read reports about mass groping gangs in Egypt, which seem to reappear every time there’s a public event or mass protest. Or just consider that very few countries in the MENA even recognise something as simple as marital rape.

I think cultures differ across the world but not that they necessarily are better/worse in all or any aspects of respecting different parts of their society. I’m actually amazed you are so blinkered on this given the breadth of your travels. It’s a view point I’d normally associate with someone of very little direct experience of other cultures.
You seem to have managed to move through and live in the Middle East without meeting anyone you like or respect