Asylum seekers in small boats.

[randomer]

What is so dreadful about France that somebody would put unaccompanied children in a dingy and send them to England? I just can't begin to imagine what is going on. Is it a brutal regime in other European countries?

I should add that this isn't some racist rant. I understand that England and English is a draw for many, they may have relatives here and so on.

There are plenty of women and children in Sangette waiting to reach UK to claim asylum

There are many, many more waiting patiently in refugee camps. We should prioritise them.

Therefore it is probably more fitting the UK are proportionately more involved in extending a humanitarian hand to people fleeing those very areas where they have lent a 'helping hand', directly or indirectly

This isn’t really how the refugee programme is supposed to work but is more of a moral argument to bolster domestic support in the UK to allow more refugees. Resettlement isn’t based on these moral considerations so much as who is wiling to take and support them.

I think if you are responsible for misery and mayhem you should at a minimum offer sanctuary to the victims

These debates always become so polarised. On one hand you have people claiming that MENA cultures are no more misogynistic than British/western cultures and on the other hand you have people claiming that asylum seekers are kept in luxury accommodation and given all the benefits.

I have worked with refugees in my country and I can tell you great stories about families who have fled war torn countries and built new lives for themselves here and are upstanding members of the community. I can equally tell you about families who take their daughters out of school at the earliest opportunity, accept domestic violence as a part of life and are long term unemployed. These issues are complex and demonisation of an entire culture and sweeping generalisation is not particularly helpful but neither is complete denial.

In Australia we do not tolerate boat arrivals, although I understand under international law they are not actually illegal. They get put into offshore detention, often indefinitely. The policy is to never allow them to settle here. Whenever the policy is relaxed and boat arrivals are granted visas, people start paying smugglers again and cross the ocean to seek asylum.
www.aph.gov.au/about_parliament/parliamentary_departments/parliamentary_library/pubs/rp/rp1314/QG/BoatArrival

It is an extremely effective policy, but it is arguably inhumane. People live in substandard centres for years and years with no hope in developing nations like Nauru. Mental health is obviously poor, access to health services is what you would expect in a developing nation and although they are entitled to Australian standard healthcare transfer to Australia is often barred by the minister because once they arrive advocates and pro bono barristers will seek injunctions to prevent them being removed back to Nauru.

There was a documentary about life in an Australian off shore detention centre, it was heart breaking. I don’t think we would EVER do that here.

Yes I have seen it. If is saves a lot of lives in deterring others it might be in the greater good but a better system is surely to send people back to where they came from rather than sticking them in effect in a prison for life without trial on Nauru. it i is the same with British asylum seekers - not allowed to work etc. If they were back in France they could apply for work etc there. At least they would not be in limbo for ages.

I’d watch it again @Xenia NOBODY could think that place was good in any way.

You cannot return people to a war zone. I do think it would make the life of many asylum seekers enormously better if we allowed them to work while the process went through. It’s cripplingly expensive for their families to support adults sometimes for many years and soul destroying for the people involved. Could we not make the process faster and more efficient?

Asylum seekers being able to apply for work in France doesn't seem to be that straightforward. Maybe there is a more 'unregulated' work market in the UK and some may prefer some work to none.

www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/france/reception-conditions/employment-and-education/access-labour-market

Whenever the policy is relaxed and boat arrivals are granted visas, people start paying smugglers again and cross the ocean to seek asylum
People weigh the costs and benefits and make a calculation, with increasing use of smartphones those who live in poor and traditional cultures can see exactly how much better life is in the modern world and it's Human nature to make a better life for yourself
The greater the disparity between us and them the more they will want what we have and who can blame them.... after all all we are all part of one big human family, why should everyone not enjoy the fruits of human progress?

Caille, may be the French are just racist compared to the British or it could be French employment rules which traditionally have been quite full of lots of paperwork.

Heffa, yes bit environmental issue too and how to achieve fairness. The irony is that a simple life outside and eating veg whilst being active probably makes you happier and healthier than living in a rabbit hutch within London pollution whilst mainlining jam donuts although obviously those with bombs dropping on them or no food at all due to drought clearly are going to want that to stop and/or move as we had here in my parents' generation - bombs fell on them in the UK sadly and plenty of children were send away from parents for years to the countryside, although they managed to survive in our case. It can be a brutal world at times.

Risking your life across the Channel in breach of the law and from a safe country France however is not something anyone wants to encourage unless they are a trafficker making a small fortune out of death.

I suspect the French are more OPENLY racist....

Not convinced they way the system is ordered has no bearing. In some European countries (don't know France), you register at the Council where you live. Not just the adults for equivalent to Council Tax, but all people in the household. You have to do this every time you move, within days in some cases. They know who is where. You have to carry your ID card with you. You can't do anything without a national service number. Bank accounts, register with doctors etc. Never mind for employment. Don't know about the 'alternative' economy, just the upfront one.

Is it a breach of law to cross the channel if you want to claim asylum? French, English or both? I suppose there comes a point if someone is in British waters in the Channel, it is nearer and thus safer to bring them to England. If people are worried about their safety, that is. After all, when in British waters, the British state is responsible for them. It ceases to be a matter for the French state at that point. Also, I wonder about the reach of a state preventing someone leaving their territory (and waters) rather than policing their arrival.

they will want what we have and who can blame them.... after all all we are all part of one big human family, why should everyone not enjoy the fruits of human progress?

They could enjoy the fruits of progress too if their fucking dysfunctional governments actually cared to. They don’t, technically speaking, need handouts or aid from Western governments.

I mean, I hate the Chinese government but they have done more than anyone throughout history to eradicate poverty (now if they could only treat their minority population with decency. Talk about asylum cases ...)

@Itisbetter

If we can’t help children in desperate danger and need, what are we?

A child is a child if they say they are a child. Even if they are six foot two and have a beard to their knees.

They could enjoy the fruits of progress too if their fucking dysfunctional governments actually cared to. They don’t, technically speaking, need handouts or aid from Western governments.

How else will they buy arms from us ?

OP, while there will be some children in the boats, remember that many adults claim to be 16 in order to get more help from the system. Last week France estimated that at least a third of migrants claiming to be minors as they arrived in the UK were adults.
Understandable that some aim for here. But we lose sight of the enormous numbers settling in other European countries. After crossing the Mediterranean in squalid conditions, the English Channel on a good weather day won't seem a risk in comparison.

How else will they buy arms from us?

Honestly not all the world’s problems are to do with the UK. Really, you think too highly of the UK .... it’s really quite insignificant in terms of world influence.

@MangoFeverDream

How else will they buy arms from us?

Honestly not all the world’s problems are to do with the UK. Really, you think too highly of the UK .... it’s really quite insignificant in terms of world influence.

I didn't say they were though.

And my point stands. While the UK is happily selling bigger and better bangs to people in these faraway countries then the people affected by said bigger and better bangs are going to want to get away from them.

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/30/uk-reclaims-place-as-worlds-second-largest-arms-exporter

And second biggest arms exporter in the world after the US isn't quite as insignificant as you might like to portray it.

A child is a child if they say they are a child. Even if they are six foot two and have a beard to their knees.

Last week France estimated that at least a third of migrants claiming to be minors as they arrived in the UK were adults.

I’m sure there are people who do lie about their age but it’s very hard to take all this talk of beards seriously. I have twin sons who are 15. One has been shaving for a year, and one for two years. Both have hairy chest, deep voices and are tall. I myself was a late developer and at their age looked much younger than my class mates. I’m pretty sure if my boys had walked from the Middle East, sleeping rough and eating rarely they would look older still.

While the UK is happily selling bigger and better bangs to people in these faraway countries then the people affected by said bigger and better bangs are going to want to get away from them

Yeah well plenty of countries buy and stockpile weapons and don’t actually use them on their civilians. That’s a choice they make, whether they get weapons from the UK or elsewhere.

But I’m sure you are one of those people that think the UK is behind all the bad things in this world. Developing countries do have agency you know.

And second biggest arms exporter in the world after the US isn't quite as insignificant as you might like to portray it

I was talking about geopolitical influence. But did take a cursory look at who you are selling arms to, and here’s the list:

The Uk’s main arms deals go to United States of America, India, France, Germany, Italy, Oman, South Africa, Turkey, South Korea, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia respectively.

So mostly US and their allies. Not a terribly problematic list with the exception of Saudi Arabia.

But I’m sure you are one of those people that think the UK is behind all the bad things in this world. Developing countries do have agency you know.

You can be sure of what you want to be sure of. In fact no thread on migrants would really be complete without it. Personally I think the UK could do so much better. But, maybe you're right and we shouldn't bother.

Personally I think the UK could do so much better. But, maybe you're right and we shouldn't bother

Sure the UK can do better. But so can these poorly managed countries with governments that only take from the people and leave them badly off.

Your focus on the UK shifts too much responsibility in my view.

@MangoFeverDream

Personally I think the UK could do so much better. But, maybe you're right and we shouldn't bother

Sure the UK can do better. But so can these poorly managed countries with governments that only take from the people and leave them badly off.

Your focus on the UK shifts too much responsibility in my view.

I think we need to concentrate on what we can do. Not what we can't.

I thin it is a pity we have such a large foreign aid budget, get little thanks for it despite our taxes being so high and yet have so many British people needing help here. The UK gives £300m to Pakistan every year alone!

I think we need to concentrate on doing better.

I think we do a lot already and agree that we also give a lot in foreign aid