Shamima begum allowed to return to UK

[mummabear1967]

Surely I’ve got this wrong? She’s actually allowed back to the UK after joining a terrorist group abroad?

Anyone just a tiny bit worried about what might happen if she does return?

To those saying she doesn’t have learning difficulties/SEN because she was a straight a student- you could be wrong often intellect/iq can be high in a number of SEN scenarios yet maturity, understanding and vulnerability are huge issues.

She could have been very immature and targeted due to that we just don’t know. I’m not defending her actions in any way just wondering if there were people higher up who deliberately targeted certain ‘types’
This could also explain her detachment about some of the things she has seen or been involved with.

There are a lot of reasons why she shouldn’t be allowed back but also a lot of questions that need answering so I’m torn as to what I think should happen in this case As it seems more complicated.

I’d hazard a guess she would be at more risk here than where she is currently

@Viviennemary

I don't think she should have got legal aid if she doesnt even have UK citizenship how can she possibly be entitled to it. The whole thing is nuts IMHO.,

Very few people can afford to finance legal action for anything but the most trivial of cases. So without legal aid she would have no recourse. She is only not a citizen because the government removed her citizenship, that's the point.

Try and take SB and whatever you think of her personally out of the picture for a minute. Do you really want to live in a country where the government, potentially just one minister even, can remove an individual's citizenship and that individual has no right to appeal, no right to challenge the decision in the courts? Think about that and what the implications are for our supposedly free and democratic society.

Yes in the case where a person plots against the state it's different from a normal crime. She should not have been given legal aid IMHO.

So, in your opinion, when crimes are above a certain severity we don't need to bother with silly little things like legal due process and we can totally disregard stupid notions like the presumption of innocence or the right to a fair trial? That's effectively what you are saying.

She's British

She was raised, schooled and radicalised here

This idea we can just ditch her bothers me

I suppose it's the new politics. Where international law, protocols etc are all out the window

I look forward to welcoming back all the criminals around the world who have a link to Britain.... A LOT of paedophiles.

I don't think she should have got legal aid
Then how exactly would lawyers get on the gravy train? Its literally their job to milk tax payers for every penny we have got. This case will make them millionaires, its like winning the lottery for them.

@retractionOfaffection

To those saying she doesn’t have learning difficulties/SEN because she was a straight a student- you could be wrong often intellect/iq can be high in a number of SEN scenarios yet maturity, understanding and vulnerability are huge issues.

She could have been very immature and targeted due to that we just don’t know. I’m not defending her actions in any way just wondering if there were people higher up who deliberately targeted certain ‘types’
This could also explain her detachment about some of the things she has seen or been involved with.

There are a lot of reasons why she shouldn’t be allowed back but also a lot of questions that need answering so I’m torn as to what I think should happen in this case As it seems more complicated.

I’d hazard a guess she would be at more risk here than where she is currently

I don't think anybody targeted her. I believe she deliberately went online and sought out isis related material, also her family were supposedly sympathisers to isis. To claim she was in anyway groomed is a cop out she knew what she was doing, the only reason she wants to come here, the country she hates, is because it's pretty shit living in a refugee camp.

People seem to think that wanting her to come to the UK to be tried means that people feel sorry for her and are making concessions for her.

I'm not sure why some of you can't get it into your heads that it's about legal issues and not emotions.

The government took a very dangerous step - if the courts agree it sets a dan

Dangerous precedent.

For people who don't think she should have had legal aid, do you object to paedophiles and murderers getting legal aid to appeal their convictions?

@Everycloud12

For people who don't think she should have had legal aid, do you object to paedophiles and murderers getting legal aid to appeal their convictions?

Yes absolutely.

@pollylocketpickedapocket everything in your comment is pure speculation. In this country we don’t, or rather shouldn’t, find people guilty on pure speculation. We certainly should t remove citizenship from anyone without any legal basis.

It doesn’t matter what you ‘believe’ there needs to be a court process followed where evidence and mitigating factors are considered and she is found either guilty or not guilty. Whether she was groomed or actively sought ISIS interaction, whether learning difficulties were a factor in her going...all that could be properly explored in court.

We’re not supposed to do trial by media but that is what has happened for her.

We have convicted peadophiles and murderers in this country currently going through court to fight deportation to stay in this country. They get a fair trial but a young girl who made a decision at 15 doesn’t.

Talkingaway her British Citizenship was completely and utterly unacceptable, no matter what she did . She should come here and face whatever is appropriate ( trial, imprisonment, reeducation whatever).None of those are a perfect solution but taking away her citizenship is an absurd cowardly act on the part of the government. She is not the problem of another country , she is ours and we need to deal with it here.

@bumblingbovine49

Talkingaway her British Citizenship was completely and utterly unacceptable, no matter what she did . She should come here and face whatever is appropriate ( trial, imprisonment, reeducation whatever).None of those are a perfect solution but taking away her citizenship is an absurd cowardly act on the part of the government. She is not the problem of another country , she is ours and we need to deal with it here.

Yes. I suspect they knew all along the decision wouldn’t hold water and would be appealed but they wanted to play to the public opinion.

For those who agree that she should have her citizenship revoked . What if the French ( just as an example) were to do this to a French citizen living here who had committed terrorist crimes in other countries?. We would be stuck with dealing with them even if we didn't want to .as the French would not take them back . We can't have governments removing the citizenship of people, it creates.a really dangerous precedent which might.lead.to lots of governments dumping citizens in other countries whenever it suits their political agenda

She was a child that was radicalised, not an adult making an unwise decision.

I'm glad she's being brought back to the Uk. She's a British citizen and the idea that the Government can suddenly turn round and remove one's citizenship and leave you stateless is a very disturbing precedent to set.

@AIMD
I always thought it would be overturned on appeal but for a while I was worried.it might not be. I was astonished at the time at the numbers of posters on MN who agreed with the decision . It showed me clearly just how.many people are driven by those emotion response with regard to crime and punishment and how little they consider the long-term picture or any long term consequences to themselves and their rights as citizens .

Anyway I for one am pleased the decision was overturned and she is coming back.here to answer for any crimes she may ( or may not) have committed.

Agree that she is a product of our society as she was raised here. As in anyone raised here.

We have the systems such as PREVENT to recognise and intervene where suspected radicalisation is occurring.

This system failed here. I would be interested in an enquiry to see if the signs were there. Because we would need to be considering updating PREVENT if it's not completely fit for purpose.

What crime would you incarcerate her for life for? The penalty for supporting a proscribed organisation is a maximum of ten years. I imagine there’d be consideration of extenuating circumstances

People have committed more heinous crimes and not received nearly as much hatred

It’s still fresh in every one’s memory that Sudesh Amman was sentenced to three years for terrorism activity, he was realised after only doing half his sentence. He was already under surveillance and had a tag on. He attacked people with a knife in a London high street leaving one person fighting for their life. He was also found with a gun in his apartment.

People still remember Usman Khan being released on licence and going on to London Bridge and stabbing five people and two were killed.

This women might not go on a murderous killing spree, but if she is let out - and there is a very good chance she will be - no one on here can give a guarantee that she would not go back in to playing an active role with in the organisation. The ‘she is only a child’ I’d utter bull shit. She is a 20 year old women who has been a party to horrors that we could possibly never imagined. She will be irreversibly damaged. She will be seen as a hero figure. People are absolutely bonkers if you think this women could slip back in society and start behaving like a normal human being again.

@itsgettingweird

Agree that she is a product of our society as she was raised here. As in anyone raised here.

We have the systems such as PREVENT to recognise and intervene where suspected radicalisation is occurring.

This system failed here. I would be interested in an enquiry to see if the signs were there. Because we would need to be considering updating PREVENT if it's not completely fit for purpose.

They will not do an official enquiry in to how NINE girls from the same school in Bethnal Green tried to leave the country to join Isis. Four girls managed - this women included. Her lawyer is saying it is extreme negligence or a cover up. The community has asked for it repeatedly in the HC but it’s not deemed important enough

[quote bumblingbovine49]@AIMD
I always thought it would be overturned on appeal but for a while I was worried.it might not be. I was astonished at the time at the numbers of posters on MN who agreed with the decision . It showed me clearly just how.many people are driven by those emotion response with regard to crime and punishment and how little they consider the long-term picture or any long term consequences to themselves and their rights as citizens .

Anyway I for one am pleased the decision was overturned and she is coming back.here to answer for any crimes she may ( or may not) have committed.[/quote]
When you open the door to her coming back, you also open the door to her being released back in to society. THATS what people are worried about

@Evelefteden the question are people putting as much effort into asking for the deportation of the many many MANY other British citizens who commit horrific crimes? Are they asking for all criminals to have their citizenship? If not why? Why this girl, who has not actually been found guilty or anything, but not other convicted offenders who have actually murdered, raped etc?

Also are people happy for the criminal justice process to be by-passed whenever public opinion dictates? I assume you would want a fair trial for any of your loved ones who were accused of a crime. I expect if your child was accused of a crime or committed a crime you’d want the chance to defend them in court and have a chance to show mitigating circumstances.

People react very harshly to crimes committed by children. It always confuses me. If we have children commuting these crimes we need to be looking back on ourselves as a society to see why we’re doing wrong!

[quote AIMD]@Evelefteden the question are people putting as much effort into asking for the deportation of the many many MANY other British citizens who commit horrific crimes? Are they asking for all criminals to have their citizenship? If not why? Why this girl, who has not actually been found guilty or anything, but not other convicted offenders who have actually murdered, raped etc?

Also are people happy for the criminal justice process to be by-passed whenever public opinion dictates? I assume you would want a fair trial for any of your loved ones who were accused of a crime. I expect if your child was accused of a crime or committed a crime you’d want the chance to defend them in court and have a chance to show mitigating circumstances.

People react very harshly to crimes committed by children. It always confuses me. If we have children commuting these crimes we need to be looking back on ourselves as a society to see why we’re doing wrong![/quote]
She is not a child. She is a woman.

So you're worried about her being released back into society?

It's ok for her to be realeased into someone else's society though when she was born and raised here?