Madeleine McCann

[morningpaper]

Instead of starting lots of new posts about Madeleine, could I politely request that anyone who wants to post on the subject please post on this one thread? (N.B. Duplicate threads may be flamed hysterically.)

Please note that this thread is not to criticise Madeleine's parents or family, as this is not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

Please can I take the liberty to quote from this article:

"This is the real life of Kate and Gerry McCann, and it must now have become a place of agony beyond all understanding. Pity them, if you have any compassion at all, and demonstrate the minimum of grace: the ability to desist from judgment."

I leave my ds in the house alone (and have done since he was very young) whilst I am in the garden. I can't see the entrance to the house while I am in the garden. If someone had wanted to abduct him, then they could have done so without me seeing.

If they were checking on them every half hour (or even every hour) then that is far more frequent than I have ever checked my onw ds - who I know is a good sleeper. So where is the negligence in that?

I really hate the way that people judge others just becasue their parenting mothdos are different.

To quote from another thread I have just posted on:

"I was talking about this with my parents recently - about how children of today are not expected to have the same freedoms that we enjoyed as a children, and how I was determined to give ds that freedom (hence him having started to walk to school at 7).

I said that the only risk that I accepted as having increased was that of traffic (hence we have worked very hard with ds to teach him traffic awareness). My dad pointed out it wasn't just that: that (UK) society's attitudes had changed. Nowadays, if something were to happen to a child, opprobrium would be heaped on the child's parents for "letting" it happen, as opposed to blaming the perpetrator of the crime (f the child had been abducted or run over by a speeding car). Also, accidents can no longer "happen", it always has to be someone's fault.

Interesting that in some of the MMcC threads, people have pointed out that other nationalities, eg Germans and Swiss are much more comfortable than leaving children for short periods thant the UK/Oz/Kiwis. "

Our Ango-saxon society today seems to be very quick to condemn the parents (any parent where something goes wrong - I'm not just talking about the McCanns) and not to condemn those that commit the crimes against the children

(Now really annoyed at myslef for getting sucked in)

Hula's link does clarify the age issue:

Q. Can I leave my baby alone for a short time?
A. No, a baby or toddler should never be left at home alone, not even for a few minutes.

I'm not sure which 'camp' I'm in re MN. I hate the stupid speculation which must be seen as nothing short of gruesome.

However, I'd stop short of sabotage or striking or bumping into oblivion. Bit mad and pointless imo. Let 'em rant on. If they can't see how distasteful it is, you are unlikely to change their mind I'm afraid.

I think everyone is searching for an answer to this, for a paragraph which sums it up and you know what, there isn't one 'cos its out of our realms of imagininings. We want an end, but just yet there isnt one to make us feel better.

I prefer a bit of silent reflection and an odd bit of reading about it. Now I'm not saying I'm superior or owt for that before you start shouting, but thats my way of dealing with it, and others have theirs. You may not like it, but you won't stop it with strikes, and daftness.

Just repeating what we were told by a policeman and a social worker running the course.

chickenmama - that is not legally however. That is purly recommendations and advice. There is NO legal minimum age!

This does not mean that I condone leaving a child alone. But that is how the law currently stands in the UK.

And sorry, Bessie123
I tried really hard to find out what exactly 'a twonk' means, even used a couple of dictionaries, but couldn't find the eloquent word.
I didn't realize joining Mumsnet talk would increase so dramatically my knowledge of abusive attributes... Hmm, interesting.
Or I imagine it was meant to be derogatory?

impassible word for today from Dictionary doctor meaning:

1. Incapable of suffering; not subject to harm or pain.
2. Unfeeling or not showing feeling.

Thats been 'part' of the problem for the McCanns imo. People have reported that they have been very woody/emotionless throughout this ordeal. But can I ask, does body language really prove their guilt or innoncence? OF course not! .

totaleclipse I read that too, that Kate sobbed on the plane, and totally broke down when at home in Madeleines room. We have no idea how they cope behind closed doors.

For my part, my heart goes out to them and I continue to pray for little Madeleine. I dont know what else to say here on MN as it is such an emotive subject, everyone treading rice paper as it were. Ive not commented for ages on this subject, but Im watching the news for hope of the little girls return or for her to be found.

as a child I (and my siblings) used to walk over 3 roads and play in a field all day, mess about in the local stables, ride horses - WITHOUT A HELMET - and generally sod off all day long

my mum was usually at home thanking the lord for some peace

completely normal

now she would be in court no doubt for neglect

those who are judging, I hope you don't make an 'error of judgement' and have it come back to bite you on the arse

It is completely wrong to compare leaving a child in the house while you are in the garden to the McGanns leaving 3 children under 5 in an apartment on a public complex without the doors locked and with a Swimming Pool a couple of metres away.

What annoys me more than anything is that if they were some chavvy couple from a council estate with tatoos and a dodgy past there would be public outcry at their actions regardless of their loss.

But at the end of the day if the McGanns are guilty or innocent of anything they have to live every minute of every day without their little girl and that must be punishment enough!

Good on your mum oliveoil!

I'm sure those are happy meories for you. Would you have rather stayed at home or did it build your independnece and self confidence?

Even if Madeleine is found alive and unharmed, she will be deeply traumatised and not the same little girl her arents last saw, The parents will have to live with that every day of thier lives, whatever the outcome, even a positive one, life will never be the same for the family.

It's a large garden, the door is also unlocked, and I can't see who is walking up the drive (which is shared with the people downstairs anyway, so even if I had been at the one place you can see the driveway, I wouldn't necessarliy have worried at seeing someone else), so it is analagous.

My ds has always been a brilliant sleeper (I don;t know whether it is just him, or becasue I copied the techniques of my best friend, a GP like the McCanns, whose 4 kids have all been good sleepers), so once he is asleep, dh and I can be confident about leaving him and going off and doing other things. In fact, if we aere to hover close by, her wouldn't go to sleep - the trick is indeed to leave him.

I can only speak for my onw expereinces - I won't judge others for theirs.

I said this yesterday, but want to say it again to those who "want something done" by SS (although I was since told that in this resort MW didn't have a listening service - still think the principle is relevant):

Many many hundreds of the Mark Warner customer base in all MW (and similar companies' resorts) will have done exactly the same thing.

Some will have stayed with their children.
Some will have arranged babysitting.
MANY will have used the MW listening service (ie someone passing the door every 1/2 hour and listening - not even looking in)
Some will have done what the McCann group did - ie an adult periodically checking
No doubt there will have been a few who will have not bothered at all and stayed in the restaurant all evening without checking.

So what should the SS do - take into care the many hundreds/thousands of children who over the summer were left???? Mad.

I would leave mine in bed and go in the garden but would lock the front door if was in the back. The risk of fire always freaks me out more than being abducted.

chickenmama> we're all entitled to our own opinions. its a shame that this topic has been so widely blow up (here and in the media) that people often cannot discuss it rationally! (well, some of us do!)
on that note, i'm bowing out of this topic...

Its mad really crumpet - the whole world has gone completely bonkers.

(((sloping off as meant to be on self imposed mn restriction)))

Look, the situation with Oliveoil is simply not analogous.

Who "encourages the independence" of a pair of 18 month old twins and a nearly four year old by leaving them home alone? This wasn't about independence - it was about the adults having quality time for themselves. Which is of course fine. No arguments with that.

The line that Prettybird had, about it being like being in her garden is a better one. But perhaps your garden is not next to a main road? Or in front of a swimming pool?

The fact that Mark Warner and many hotel groups have these baby listening services is irrelevant. They are only safe for babies and not safe for children who are mobile and can get out of cots etc.

fund will not be used for legal fees

Just thinking ahead as bobbysmum is bound to join the thread ranting on about how disgusted she is about parents using money for legal fees.

I'm with you, p&p, but I don't think I'm going to say anything else...

At the end of the day none of this matters - I bet they wish every moment they could turn back the clock and strap those kids into puchchairs and take them with them.

they are going to begin digging around the church and will also be speaking to the priest to find out if the McCanns made any confession to him....

apparently the roads were being laid at the time Madeleine went missing and there were 7ft holes which were filled in shortly afterwards.

apparently, if they can not get a warrant to dig they will use dogs and imaging equipment.

i have an awful feeling that there is going to be an outcome to this case soon, one way or another

The priest cant say anything surely, would that not be againsed his religion?

that's what i'm unsure of. does anyone know?

I think they can say something - there was a case about it recently in Scotland i think, has to be extenuating circumstances.