Madeleine McCann

[morningpaper]

Instead of starting lots of new posts about Madeleine, could I politely request that anyone who wants to post on the subject please post on this one thread? (N.B. Duplicate threads may be flamed hysterically.)

Please note that this thread is not to criticise Madeleine's parents or family, as this is not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

Please can I take the liberty to quote from this article:

"This is the real life of Kate and Gerry McCann, and it must now have become a place of agony beyond all understanding. Pity them, if you have any compassion at all, and demonstrate the minimum of grace: the ability to desist from judgment."

I think the McCanns have talked about their guilt in leaving them alone. They have talked about how easy it was to go to dinner and they they didn't even think about it. They have also said of course they wish they could turn back the clock but that that have to look forward and keep positive that they will find her alive and well.

I'm sure they have lots of horrible nights they haven't told us about.

Before Madeleine I would not have been inclined to leave my kids, but if everyone else was doing it I dare say I could have been persuaded. Today: no way, no how. I wouldn't do it, especially not an apartment that could be accessed by anyone who walks by.

I think Madeleine got up and walked out on her own because someone going to abduct a child would probably have taken Amelie who is not old enough to talk and not old enough to remember where she comes from.

I do not think the McCanns could have killed her, hidden the boody, gone to dinner, then moved the body 5 weeks later. And I can't believe there is ll this hype about a murder when there is no body and no weapon. If they think MAdeleine was drugged, why haven't they tested the blood of Sean and Amelie... or have they?

A separate thread was opened to discuss the issue of leaving children alone. This thread was meant to be for discussing news developments.

wannabe

Kate and Gerry are convinced Madeleine did'nt walk off, they are adamant she would not have gone anywhere without her cuddly toy, (cuddle cat) and that the toy had been laced up high out of Madeleines reach.

HorribleHorace, I think you'll find that LieselVentouse (today at 8.20) stated that she thought the McCanns were guilty (I'd be quite interested to know if that was libellous actually). Various others have, for rather (I think) strange reasons stated that they HOPE the McCanns are guilty.

You will never get rid of us 'crusaders' (I take that as a compliment by the way) just because (rather stupidly probably) a lot of us care about MN and don't want it to sink into a pit of libellous speculation.

And there was never a deal that stated that if people stuck to one thread, they would be left alone to say what they like. It was done so that active convos wasn't always clogged up with MM threads.

Manic, precisely one person has come on to the thread to say they think the McCanns are guilty and they were stamped on quite rightly.

I do not think the reasons why posters said they hoped the McCanns were guilty were actually anything other than expressions of sympathy for the awful position the McCanns were in.

Now, you clearly want to fight about this, but I would ask you not to. It causes a lot of bad feeling. Tech has gone to a lot of work so that your sensibilities do not have to be offended. You don't have to have a fight, really you don't.

If you consider any post to be libellous, then report it and MNet will deal with it.

Since when was disagreement fighting?

Disagreement is not fighting. Accusatory and emotive posts accusing people of defamation/rubbernecking/all sorts of nastiness, most of which is undeserved is fighting IMO.

Now that Manic has lured me out of my lurk, I thought you might be interested in this blog entry from Alphamummy.

It is not of course reporting any new facts - there haven't been any of those for a while - but it is interesting about the emotional tyranny of the press atm.

timesonline.typepad.com/alphamummy/2007/09/thought-crime.html

I'd be interested to know what's happening now in what was the international search for Madeleine. Are the Portuguese police now only investigating the possibility she was murdered by her parents? If this is the case then I'd suggest they must be pretty well convinced by their evidence.

From the McCann's point of view, I'm wondering what they are doing now re. the search, they don't seem to have mentioned it much since the issue of murder charges came up. If I was the parent of a child who I knew had been abducted (and not murdered by me), and I was sitting on £1 million of donations to use in finding her, I would not be sitting at home waiting for the cops to make their call. I would be spending that money in following up every possible lead about where my child could be, as fast as I could, before a terrible situation got worse.

eleuis - I too think Madeleine walked out of the apartment and an opportunist took her. I 100% stand by this.

And where have I done all that? Horace said 'no-one has accused them' I was simply correcting him/her because someone has accused them. Why are you replying on Horace's behalf?

I'm not fighting, I'm making a comment on an internet forum.

Seems it is illegal to employ a private investigator to pursue an open case in Portugal.

Manic, you haven't done that but you are out and proud as someone who wants to interfere with the discussion on here, and there has been a large number of oldies posting being really quite offensive. You seemed to be gearing up for a fight. I was trying to nip it in the bud before posts started getting deleted again.

sorry if you misunderstood what i was saying. i meant to say that no one on the thread at the time that lucyellen posted was saying they felt the McCanns were guilty. I know that a few people have said so but i do feel they are in a minority.

where does it say that cuddle cat had been placed out of reach? Haven't seen that anywhere, in fact the only thing I've seen Kate Mccann say is that she knew that Madeleine had been taken but couldn't say how.

Also the family have refused to even consider the possibility that Madeleine could be dead, Filomina (sp?) was on the radio the other day saying "the abductor has her, or has passed her on" how could she possibly know that?

Yes I realize there hasn't been a body, but reality is that it's a lot easier to hide a body than a live child.

I have seen it reported that the Cuddle Cat was placed on a high shelf so Kate McCann knew she had been taken because she wouldn't have been able to reach the shelf.

I do understand their not wanting to consider she may not be alive. I don't think I could bring myself to consider it in their position. I fear it would finish me off tbh

but isn't that a bit strange that an abductor would take the time to remove the cuddly toy and place it on a high shelf? why would someone do that?

tbh, as a parent I think I would rather know my child was dead than consider the alternatives.

I just read apparently some people HOPE the mccanns are guilty, I do to, for maddies sake, can I just explain why though. If it was indeed, an accident at the hands of her parents it is unlikely she suffered, if she was abducted it is very unlikely she is still alive, if she is, she may be being well looked after and have been 'adopted' by some couple hoping for a child, but surely they would've come forward in some way shape or form? Therefore if she wasn't killed by her parents, it stands to reason she was abducted by some filthy paedophile/child murderer who will have done goodness knows what to her. So although I hope in my heart she is alive and these people will get their daughter back, I hope if she is dead it was at the hands of two people who loved her very much and maybe accidentally caused her death.

wannaBe, i suppose they are still hoping someone has her and is taking care of her. Perhaps they can not bring themselves to think of any other alternative.

I too read that cuddecat was placdout of Madeleine's reach and as she had been sleeping with it Kate knew someone had been in the apartment.

I also read that Kate washed cuddlecat 5 days after Madeeine disappeared, which the police do not expect a woman who'shild is missing to do.

I would have washed DS's taggy as it's minging! Even when washed I can still smell him it's so well loved, maybe cuddle cat was a bit too loved too?

Who knows why she washed the cat? Maybe one of the twins was sick on it. Hardly compelling evidence of guilt.

So....based on no conclusive DNA evidence, it is mooted that the McCanns accidentally caused the death of their daughter (possibly by employing the expert scientific knowledge they would have had as doctors and drugging her), managed to hide her body (possibly down a hole in the road, or stuffed under a pew in the church, which in a very catholic country is constantly busy), went out for a relaxed, sociable dinner with friends, were at the heart of a campaign to leave no stone unturned in searching for her, (which inevitably led to them being followed night and day by hordes of journalists and amateur detectives), hired a car, put on their invisibility cloaks and dug up the body, drove it to the marina, persuaded a man to let them on to his yacht to dump a bag over the side, disbanded the expert scientific knowledge they would have had as doctors (and even experience of watching CSI) and left great clumps of her hair everywhere and packed to go home? Where social services wait, thinking of seizing the other two children.

or

Every avenue has been pursued as it would in a police case. Some suggestion of DNA was found but scientific experts all agree that it is inconclusive. However, following routine procedure - that every new piece of information must be examined and explored, the police call the McCanns in to interview them. Because they are asked about DNA in the car they are obliged to bestow the 'arguida' status. Despite 'arguida' status, in respect of a missing child case, the McCanns are not put under any bail-type restrictions, nor prevented from leaving the country. They get home and have no objections to a routine meeting with social services. They know it is normal practice. There remains no evidence at all which helps the case reach a conclusion.
As is the sad truth in many other disappearances.

Why are we so desparate for a conclusion, even an incriminating implausible one? people may well have to acccept that this is an unsolved crime. It seems so cruel for the press and others to develop and report far-fetched scenarios in pursuit of an ending.

It is so very very sad.

Very well written Rita.

I still believe Madeleine walked out of the appartment and whatever happened after that is a BIG ?

I think it's more likely that any abductor would remove the cuddle cat from the bed and put it out somewhere out of reach. Why would they try to carry a toy at the same time they're trying to abduct a child. Also it could prove dangerous to the abductor should it be lost at any time during transporting Madeleine; any location the toy was found in would provide unequivocal proof of where she had been.

As for Madeleine being stolen and then adopted, I find it unbelievable an abductor would opt to try this with a 3/4 yr old child when there were two younger children 'available' in the same room.