Madeleine McCann

[morningpaper]

Instead of starting lots of new posts about Madeleine, could I politely request that anyone who wants to post on the subject please post on this one thread? (N.B. Duplicate threads may be flamed hysterically.)

Please note that this thread is not to criticise Madeleine's parents or family, as this is not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

Please can I take the liberty to quote from this article:

"This is the real life of Kate and Gerry McCann, and it must now have become a place of agony beyond all understanding. Pity them, if you have any compassion at all, and demonstrate the minimum of grace: the ability to desist from judgment."

If she walked out there would have been DNA evidence or some other sort of evidence to suugest this. Why is there blood and hair in the boot then? And yes, social services should be involved - these are two intelligent adults who left three children under the age of 3 years alone in an apartment in another country. THis consititues neglect and raises questions about their parenting capacity. Yes, there are lots of quesitons, but they have actively put themseleves in the media's attention and are thus open to scrutiny and unfortunately people will make judgements because that is what human beings do. We mustn't forget that a little girl has lost her life here and it's important that all avenues are explored, including the parents, as to what happended to her.

doesn't it make some sense that an abductor would prefer a child that is out of nappies, rather than two-year old twins who probably still wear nappies day and night? i think whoever snatched her probably didn't want to raise suspicion (sp?) by suddenly buying nappies. sadly, i find it harder to believe someone took her to have her adopted than that some sicko got her... i feel so deeply sorry for the parents!

correction dunga: there is nothing to suggest that she has lost her life! as long as there is no body.

Didn't the sniffer dogs trace Madeleine's scent as far as the shop (wherever that was).

Honneybunny: don't see what buying nappies has got to do with anything. If the abduction was to order for the purposes of 'adoption' then doubtless the 'adoptive parents' would prefer as young a child as possible. Who the heck could 'adopt' Madeleine McCann? An obviously European child who can speak English with an English accent and who is all over the press with a very distinctive identity. If she's alive and being looked after by people who simply wanted a child then it would have to be in some media-free backwater where she has no contact with outsiders. I find this much less likely than imprisonment for more nefarious purposes or indeed murder, by whoever and for whatever reason. Also the scenario in which she woke up, wandered and was taken by an 'opportunist' is about equal in likelihood to the idea her parents had something to do with it.

I think the point of the current media speculation about her parents is that whatever forensic evidence there is suggests she has lost her life; what was found in the car was supposedly corpse fluids, not blood/saliva/vomit. Isn't that why the Portuguese authorities have given up on the abduction theory?

dunga, one of the overwhelming number of things that we DO NOT know is that Madeleine has "lost her life".

I'm in the "not persuaded they did it" camp on the grounds of lack of evidence in front of me. All the "incriminating" stuff that I've seen seems to me to have plausible alternative (i.e. innocent) explanations.

As for leaving the kids alone, I do not think, on the basis of what I've read, that it constituted neglect. Negligence, maybe.

Neglect, to me suggests repeated, sustained action or inaction from someone who does not care that the child(ren) could suffer or are suffering. Negligence, otoh, to me is more likely to mean an isolated act. I am inclined to think of this as a misjudgement by parents who love and care for their children and who underestimated the risks they were exposing the children to. I don't think I'd have done the same in their situation but I wouldn't bet anything I really valued on that and I refuse to judge them for that. I'm glad to find, in Mumsnet, many like minds on that point.

Perhaps its possible Madeleine knew her abductor, even if only slightly, someone she would be able to recognise, and perhaps the intention was to take one of the twins, but Madeleine woke up, the abductoer panicked and took her instead.

Message withdrawn

No, dont have the faintest idea.

Are posts peppered with "maybe", "perhaps", "even if" etc, which are pure speculation, helpful? Are they really a discussion of what is known? I don't think so.

This is slightly off the subject of the other posts, but I had an enquiry from a journalist (via Friends Reunited)2 days ago as I apparently went to Uni with Mrs McCann - I didn't reply but felt like it - vulture.

3sEnough, be careful, they could be knocking on your door next

i can not believe she walked off tbh. It doesn't explain the Cuddle Cat being out of reach. There are only two possible options as far as I can see, both of them equally grim but in different ways

I think people want them to be guilty as the Bogey Man is a far more frightening thought. We all think we are protected from our own actions but nothing can protect us from the Bogey man.

Agree with Cod. None of us have any idea where Madeleine is.

However, it is news that Lindy Chamberlain, the mother in the Dingo baby case, has spoken out in favour of the McCanns. Doesn't mean they are innocent, but does mean someone who has been falsely accused and imprisoned can see the paralllels.

But re the investigation, I think critism of the Portugese police is not national prejudice (and I do wish people would stop bandying the term racism around so loosely - being Portugese does not mean you are a different race from anyone else. It devalues the word).

It's based on reporting of their incompetence. Which is more accurate than the ludicrous speculation about the McCanns since journalists have seen with their own eyes what the cops have done. And then checked it with forensic experts. So it's not just speculation or jounalists' opinion.

The police failed to secure the (apparent) crime scene. That is an established fact. (Apparent because no-one knows whether Madeleine was taken or whether she somehow wandered off). They failed to wear protective clothing while tramping around the crime scence. Again, that's something journalists saw with their own eyes. They failed to secure the car. So any forensic evidence may well be contaminated. Stuff in the boot could well have come from the McCanns' possessions - they've had their luggage, including Madeleine's clothes in that car for weeks!

The Guardian says today (and this is not fact but an interesting piece of reporting) that questions from the police about sedation were sparked by disbelief that the children were asleep by 7.30. Because this would be very, very unusual in Portugal. So it suggests cultural misunderstandings may be part of the problem.

Of course I'm not privy to the details of the Portugese investigation. But it does seem likely based on reporting by serious, non-hysterical newspapers, that there are real problems with the forensic evidence.

Another interesting POV is that the tabloids don't know which way to call this. Tabloid journalists and editors usually have a nose for guilt. Of course that doesn't mean they are infallible but it is unusual.

disbelief that the children were asleep by 7.30!!
Why on earth is that unbeleivable, chances are they were racing around all day, perhaps they normally have day naps, but did'nt on holiday, they could have been awake since 6am.

Because that's not the culture in Portugal, where you have a siesta and kids stay up late. Apparently.

I think the Portugese would find that odd. Over there children stay up very late and eat with their parents.

They are probably surprised by the fact that all 9 adults were confident enough of their children not waking up for the whole time they were out.

I don't see that as particularly surprising myself if the children are in a good/regular routine (although it's still a gamble imho)

I think kids being asleep by 7.30pm is totally to do with many factors, factors being what time they got up, if they had a nap in the daay, what activities they had been doing all day & if there parents choose to stick to bed time routine on holiday, i don't think just because you are on holiday in a certain country everyone who holidays in that country does what they do in there day to day life in "said" country i:e having siestas etc.

I have a friend who when goes on holiday with her son whois 4 years old she still sticks to his bedtime routine of bed at 7pm some people are like this others don't mind keeping there kids up as it's holiday.

No one knows what went on & how the Mccanns felt about there children being up but by the sounds of it they wanted there kids in a routine on holiday is well which is totally acceptable by all means.

To believe that the Portuguese police think that a 7.30 pm bedtime is evidence of sedation and possible overdose is just mad, IMO. As is the idea that they have been confused by traces of hair, saliva or whatever from the McCann's luggage. No police force in the world is that stupid. If they have enough evidence to contemplate pressing murder charges then obviously it's going to be more than a few stray hairs.

just because its the culture there I wouldn't have thought that the police would assume that visitors to the country would be sticking to cultural ideas. my dd1 who is 7 needs to go to bed at 7 because she ALWAYS wakes at 6.30 or 7 no matter when she ges to bed or how tired she is so 7pm bedtime is the only way to get her well rested.

Thats a good point, and fairly logical.