Madeleine McCann

[morningpaper]

Instead of starting lots of new posts about Madeleine, could I politely request that anyone who wants to post on the subject please post on this one thread? (N.B. Duplicate threads may be flamed hysterically.)

Please note that this thread is not to criticise Madeleine's parents or family, as this is not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

Please can I take the liberty to quote from this article:

"This is the real life of Kate and Gerry McCann, and it must now have become a place of agony beyond all understanding. Pity them, if you have any compassion at all, and demonstrate the minimum of grace: the ability to desist from judgment."

Yes I'm not sure how a law would work. But I do think the existing laws are unclear. As for commonsense prevailing, I do not know what commonsense is.

I mean, to me it is commonsense not to leave three tots alone. Not to the McCanns. People have very widely divergent approaches to what is acceptable and what isn't.

Witness the grandmother who thought it was okay to look after small children after drinking two bottles of wine and smoking 10 spliffs.

I think legislation would be really difficult, in fact impossible without turning us into some kind of police state. Car seats for children under a certain aga / height/weight are a legal requirement but there is still a loophole in the law about "emergency journeys". But I'm guessing that the insurance company would be asking you to prove that the journey was an emergency if you were claiming for an accident.

Something similar could be applied with leaving children alone, so, say, leaving alone for a minute to pop in to pay for petrol would be legal.

tots

Did I say something wrong, Red Bundle? Should I have said toddlers? I don't like children being referred to as kids, is there something similar with toddlers and tots?

b.t.w, can we start a new thread under parenting to discuss this topic - all those poor "not in the news" crusaders will be missing out.

Pedanticandproud - but the grandomother wasn't charged with that - it wasn't illegal. So then you add another whole layer into the defintion of "leaving a child alone": what happens if you are totally drunk and incapable?

Well it would be good to include everyone - but I am worried that people will turn up and start ranting that it is inappropriate to discuss this at this time or that we are being in some way recriminatory. As soon as the McCann name is mentioned on that thread, which it inevitably will be, then WW3 will erupt. We've had a few border raids from the zealots already, haven't we?

what's wrong with children?

I always think that words like bid, tot etc are tabloidy and v surprised that people use them at all. sorry if being pedantic

Being pedantic is my job ...

leaving kids alone - commonsense to be used here. Going out for an evening & leaving small children isn't on.

I have read somewhere that the McCanns are thought to have drugged their kids as well to help them sleep. I feel that this issue needs to be tackled by the health/social services if it's true.

Pedanticandproud - I am happy to discuss the principles of parenting involved. I won't disucss the individual case and certainly not any speculation.

New thread started here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/67/387740

"I have read ..." "... if it's true" - exactly why much of this discussion is futile, no factual basis.

Prettybird - not sure I was inviting speculation, was I? Didn't mean to, anyhow.

MrsMarvel - I'll come over to your thread because I feel sure you are going to get flamed even though the topic is interesting. You'll need some support!

It's good to see that a post that was abusive earlier on was deleted by Mumsnet. Let's try to abide by the accord that developed.

Maisy- they have already denied sedating her. Many parents (not I) do use popular anti-histamines to help their children to sleep. This issue is being investigated.

it's like lots things we talk about - we don't actually know the whole truth. Life is built on speculation and ideas. Think how often you speculate or talk about something that you don't know the whole fact for.

PanP - thanks for the update.

pedantic - if you don't want to speculate, try the other thread.

Im relaibly correct when dd is lying or hiding something from me, dh can never see it, but i can see staright through it. Intuition or speculation? I dont have the facts, but can just tell.

This issue of proper parental supervision is such a tough one. On a long term scale we are dealing with issues such as child abduction, paedophile networks, international white slavery etc that have never before been seen on such epidemic levels. Only forty years ago it was not an issue to leave your kids playing in the street all day or for my dad (as an example) to disappear on his bike all day aged 10, cycle for miles, and just knock on any stranger's door when he needed a glass of water. We're at a stage now where the question of me (single mother aged 30) getting a new boyfriend raises the automatic question "how will you know he's not a paedophile?" from certain people, and to leave a child apparently safely asleep while the parent/s do their own thing close by (something else that's been done without question for thousands of years of civilisation) raises the automatic possibility of abduction, murder etc.

haychee that is different because you have something tangible to base your suspicion on, even if just past experience of when your dd has lied before and her body language. It isn't intuition when all you have to base your opinion on is the latest line depicted 3rd hand (if that) via the media and of which you have no direct personal experience.

I agree with Liz. I always know when my daughter is lying. That's because I know her.

I've got a good idea. Why don't you all put your active imaginations to a good purpose? Write a novel maybe. Just a thought.

Pedanticandproud - wasn't meaning you

I was meaing I wouldn't respond to any speculation (and in fact, speculation did jsut reappear on the thread around the time I was posting)

NKF - I've got a better idea. There are too many badly written novels in the world already.

My better idea is that if you need to vent some aggression, why not take up kick-boxing?

It's altogether better for you than spoiling for a fight on an otherwise happy thread.

I didn't say you needed to publish them. Just put them away in a desk drawer and read them over when the night's get dark.

Kickboxing sounds fun. Is it?