Madeleine McCann

[morningpaper]

Instead of starting lots of new posts about Madeleine, could I politely request that anyone who wants to post on the subject please post on this one thread? (N.B. Duplicate threads may be flamed hysterically.)

Please note that this thread is not to criticise Madeleine's parents or family, as this is not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

Please can I take the liberty to quote from this article:

"This is the real life of Kate and Gerry McCann, and it must now have become a place of agony beyond all understanding. Pity them, if you have any compassion at all, and demonstrate the minimum of grace: the ability to desist from judgment."

iprettybird - i understands totally and its a sad world we live in where children cant play out safetly luckily i have been able to teach my kids to be very independent and saftey aware they are not prisoners in there own home (i know you didnt say the b ut lots of chldren are becoming more so) we go out lots as a family and my two year old has been taught how to cross a rd(the best we can). my 17 ds is more street wise and independent than some 30 yr olds i know. and i did not let him play out till he was 11.

We struggle with babysitters too, but admittedly I am picky about who has my children, so often me and dh go out seperately with our friends while the other stays home.

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article1762734.ece

I've posted a link to an article by a legal expert discussing this. Apparently you as a parent have to assess whether or not there is a risk to your children. At any age. There is no age limit.

But in practice of course leaving young children alone does expose them to risks. Parents have been fined/jailed for exposing their children to risk. That is why certain children's charities advocate not leaving children alone below the ages of (variously) 12 or 14.

Does anyone agree that there should be a law for minimum age children to be left alone?

Dellgirl13, www.childrenslegalcentre.com/Templates/Topic.asp?NodeID=90323 was linked to earlier on this thread. The law is such that it is only an offence if you leave them alone and you are deemed to have negligently exposed them to danger - whcih in practice would only be if something had happened.

So in your friend's case, the policeman was trying to scare your friend, but I doubt very much if the CPS (or procurator fiscal in Scotland) would have brought charges.

total eclipse - yes, i actually thought there was, so had no plans to leave mine before they were 14 anyway......

Do you know I am not sure about that. I think a law would be good in certain circumstances. But what about the responsible 8 year old versus the totally irresponsible 13 year old argument?

Of course a law would not have been effective in the McCanns case - they were on holiday in Portugal where different and less lenient laws apply.

Can we have a law against baby listening services being used for toddlers?

There is a point at which it becomes neglect, which is a form of abuse in law. I'm not sure about whether I agree with defining a legal age, but there should certainly be more public awareness of the rights and wrongs and risks.

sparkybabe - you did tthe right thing, you relied on the hotel listening service which is exactly what I would do, my life hasn't stopped, I still go out. I just have to plan a responsible method of supervision, and all my children sleep very well.
It wasn't your fault the listening service had stopped working.

am I allowed to post if I disagree and think that a law against listening services for toddlers is a big pile of tosh?

You are of course, Kewcumber. Why not? Don't you think they provide a mostly false sense of security? Mobile tots can wake up and get out of rooms.

Total, I agree there should be, but its an ambiguous area, as each child develops differently. and a lot of families, where there are like loads of kids, depend on the elder of the children to look after the younger.

I wouldnt like to put an age on it, so it would be interesting to see what other mums think the age lim should be.

Gaurdian

'How will this story end? That's what makes it so grimly compelling: none of us knows. Until we do, basic justice demands that we presume the McCanns are wholly innocent. Common decency demands the same. For if they are eventually found guilty, there will be plenty of time for condemnation. But if they are innocent, to presume otherwise is to commit a second crime against people who have already suffered enough.'

I dont mean it should be a high age, but certainly toddlers and younger, and being left alone should be defined in radius, for eg, say no more than 200 yards away unless on your own property, because of course some people have hjge gardens.

I don;t think too much about it all P&P - over legislating is not going to make children any afer. Its patently obvious from this thread alone that the vast majority of people don't know the law as it stands, one more picky little law is madness.

The Guardian article was posted earlier on in the thread.

The conclusion is right, I think, but if it was posted as a reproof, may I say that the reproof is undeserved?

We have not speculated about the gory details (unlike the author of the article in question). We're having a reasoned and sensible discussion.

Our thread only gets spoiled when the anti-any-form-of-McCann-discussion faction turn up to tell us off for discussing what is being discussed in varying terms up and down the country.

i'm liking your strike outs olive

BeetrootBevan - we're not talking about that any more - we're having a more general (and for once civilised )discussion about the legal age for leaving children alone - and using people's own experreinces.

TotalEclipse - I don't think there should be legal minimum age. There was a good down-to-earth article about this a number of years back in the Saturday (Glasgow) Herald, with contributions from the Children's Society, lawyers etc. They pointed out some 16 years couldn't be trusted with your granny, whereas some 10 year olds are fine as "latch key" kids. And is it OK to leave ababy for 2 minutes while you put the bin out?

So where do you draw the line?

Yes that's a good point, Prettybird. I agree too that Kewcumber is right about too much legislation. Perhaps the issue is that the current legislation is too confusing? Perhaps if there were a law say that children under 7 should never be left? Parental discretion for older children with risk assessment?

A law for this would never work. How would it be enforced on a day to day basis? How would the right age and right length/duration of absence be agreed? What would constitute leaving the child alone - how far could you go? Parents should, nad must IMO, be the ones making those judgements. Besides those people likely to leave their children are not likely to stop doing it because of a law, a law that would be hard to enforce anyway. And what would the punishment be if found guilty?

There are laws now, of course, Hula. Parents are regularly fined/imprisoned/suffer their children being removed for putting them at risk.

But even for the under 7s, what do you mean by "never left". In Elfriend's case, she hadn't "left" her child - she was probably monitoring him more closely than many (personally, I think baby monitors are inthe intrument of the devil, but that's just me ).

If you put your bin out and stay talking to a neighbour at the bottom of the driveway, is that leaving them? If you're hanging the washing up outside? It's all a case of individual circumstances - leaving a child in a bath while you go outside would be negligent, but talking to a neighbour over the garden wall for 15-30 minutes, while they are sleeping would be OK.

Is going to pay for the petrol while watching the car leaving them?

What about siblings? When can they look after each other?

I think we have enough laws at the moment to not try to legislate for all such eventualities - but to let the common sense approach prevail.

Just checked to see the front page of the BBC news and there is no Madeleine story there at all.

Unlike Sky, which is conjuring up a story out of nowhere about items being removed (including the toy animal) from the McCann house. They are being removed for more DNA testing apparently.

I was taklking of having a law re minimum age and leaving children alone. At present the law does not set this out, and I frankly can't see how it can. People only tend to end up going to court and the law being enforced IF something happens to the child in such a way that it has to come to the attention of official agencies.

You only have to read MN to see that there are many people out there who are leaving children unattended for periods of time and who do go unreported.Mn often has threads from a concerned party regarding it - mum leaving child at home to go out to work in evening, mum asking if okay to leave a poorly youngster home whilst she nips to drop other child off at school/club, etc.