Human bloody rights and convicted murderers

[shinyhappytonks]

Makes me so mad

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6955071.stm

and since when does 'a life sentence' mean you get out when you are 26

11 paltry years for taking someones life, and altering an entire family

UCM - I am not some mad liberal loony. Some days TBH I am quite the opposite, esp if I have sat through a morning of listening to the stuff some people have done. I don't take on some even class mentality. I deal with this at work regualry. This is my work. This is what I do. yes, I do read up, etc. I have to know this stuff in order to do my job. I also have to have a common sense approach, not a string em up approach.

There are things that need to be done, I definitely agree and some changes are already happening.

The reason why prison numbers are so high is not because of more high catergory crimes. it is that more people are sent to prison for lesser crimes. And we have more illegal immigrants in our prisons than before also.

AFAIK high catergary type crimes have remained fairly static over the past years. And these types of crimes did happen when we were younger, of course they did. It is just there was less media about, less 24 hour news and no internet, therefore awareness was not as great as it is now.

So knife crime was the same in 1983 as it is now

There are truly some people who need life without parole, so I think it should be an option for a judge or jury in some instances.

Whilst reform is all well and good, a government's first duty is to protect its people, and that means that some folks honestly cannot be released back into society for society's own good.

In order to avoid the possibility of this happening, I don't see what's wrong with a judge, panel of judges or jury having this option for the Ian Huntlys of this world.

or gun crime or murder or muggings

"The personalising of the wrongdoer and giving them all the time in the world, counselling, probation and generally ignoring the victims, WORKS? "

In some cases yes it does work. Bar the ignoring the victims. And that is an area that is growing in prison rehabilitation. There are many rehabilotation programmes set up to deal with victim awareness and restorative justice where prisoners address their crimes and look at the impact on their victims, and also in some cases have contact with their victims and family. Rehabilitation CAN work. However, this is still being developed in detail in most prisons, and needs much more work IME.

No, I do not condone the death penalty, and I come from the state with does the most: Texas.

It also has one of hte largest populations of any state - 2nd to California - and one of the highest crime rates - there are a lot of drugs coming through there from S. America via Mexico.

The death penalty costs a fortune.

Hence, why it does not exist in some states.

Murder rates have remained fairly static AFAIK.

Life without parole isn't actually a sentence we need. It can happen anyway without. A judge can chose to set a very high minium sentence for life, and then the person would still need to pass a parole board if they lived this long. Chances are they won't. Very high risk prisoners are not just let out. Think of the Moors murderers for example, they will not be released.

Actually hula is bang on about the stats- there was report today explaining this, when you campared the UK to other european countries (the riginal complanint was why did the UK have more serious criminals in prison), we simply jail people for far lesser crimes.

I don't understand why trying to support the offender 9and hence prevent reoffending) means the vixctim receives no support? I was a witness to an attmpteed murder last year and i couldn't move for letters offering me support. I believe the ofender was released early on condition he attended a drugs and alcohol rehab thing and had certain tests or something after.... from waht I witnessed, that seemed entirely appropriate (and the victim had not botherered to turn up to the court, had simply sent a letter saying she had been too drunk to remember the events).

Hula I understand where you are coming from but can anyone else answer my question about violent crime?

The college I used to work at ahd a section that was contracted to provide in house education to a prison. It seems to me only logical that a person with qualifications, maybe some job skills and self respect is less likely to re offend than one who is dumped out the gates with the address of teh nearest dole office and nothing more.

Providing support for victims is IMo a very different thing and should be seperate from dealing with offenders generally. Of course victims should be offered all manner of support. There are things on offer and this should be open to all victims of crime. Some vitims do refuse this help though. It can't be forced on them.

Awful as it is, I don't think this crime is as evil as Ian Huntley's. Life without parole does exist here, quite rightly, but I don't see the sense in locking up someone for life who did this as a child. As Hula points out, he's not exactly free to go off and do what he wants in the future, once he's out - his whole life outside will be impacted upon by what he did when he was 15.

I am sorry Peachy & Hula, but I don't believe you.

Peachy, that's my point exactly. Human rights are a good thing so how have they become so distorted that they get used for this sort of case?

Personally, I don't think it should matter if he has no family in Italy. If he had no family he'd be sent back true enough. So how come his circumstances provide an opt out for him whereas someone in worse circumstances (no family) would not get that lifeline?

about the stats that is

I don't have the stats with me. Have them at work but not in office now till next Tuesday.

Some violent crimes have risen, some have fallen and some have remained static. It also depends on when you compare them with - how far back you go. And simple numbers alone don't tell you the full story. You need to look at % across population numbers, and also look at breakdowns as to who is committing crimes and when.

she has answered your question ucm. as did i.

the rates are static.

why don't you look the stats up then UCM?

'Chances are they won't. Very high risk prisoners are not just let out. Think of the Moors murderers for example, they will not be released. '

But as long as that chance is still there, and as long as it is, unfortunately, there is that threat.

Only looking at this through hindsight, because believe it or not, in the US, some offenders managed to be paroled before there was a life w/o parole option.

One in particular, Kenneth Allan McDuff, served well over 30 years for a triple murder in conjunction with rape.

He slipped through the cracks.

And raped and murdered 7 more women - including one pregnant with her 3rd child - before he was apprehended.

It can happen, because parole boards are falliable and the passage of time can lessen things, including the victims' family dying or moving away and therefore not watching for the release of such criminals.

Peter Tobin is another one that springs to mind, here in the UK. This man cannot be rehabilitated. Yet even in his 60s, he was released back into the public after a particularly heinous crime - far from his first - to rape and brutally murder Angelika Kluk. Police are still gathering evidence from his former home in Bathgate, West Lothia, as he is now suspected of murdering a teenager there in the 90s, and he is being investigated for a number of unsolved rapes (he's got a long track record of this) and even the Bible John murders.

UCM - I can only say what I know from my experience at work, and from my research based on my work and my current studies for my L4 course. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion however, as I am mine. But I can say that I have seen people change, and I have seen truely sorry prisoners who have committed serious crimes. As I said before these are generally ones who committed crimes when younger and who have had time to grow up and learn from their crimes and punishment inside.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb1206.pdf

struggling to find much on the year you specified (though did find that crime tripled that year in the USA so a bad year!), however according to the link above violent crime dropped by 10% between 1995 and 2005.

Not sure why knife crime satnds alone- gun crimes, domestic murders, etc all qualify equally. Just because one type of crime is aprticualrly media focussed now, doesn't mean it ranks worse than other crimes with the same outcome, iyswim.

Anyway, one PG woman off to bed. G'night.

But expat - life without parole also brings with it a lot of its own problems. Life without parole is not a simple solution. Unfortunately it just doesn't work out like that.

ooo I keep writing posts and then parping myself - I'm going to let you lot get on with it - (but I'm generally with Hulu, Expat, Senora and Sophable etc etc)

Peter Tobin honestly shouldn't have been released after that terrible double rape, sodomisation and attempted murder of two teenage girls in Plymouth - one of whom is now a drug-addicted prostitute, but he was.

Parole boards fuck up.

They do.

Everywhere all over hte world.