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Why the Madeleine critics make me mad

336 replies

mumofteens · 18/08/2007 16:30

It makes me mad to still be hearing pompous, judgemental, illogical people criticising the parents of Madeleine about their decision to eat nearby while the children were in the room, and even going so far as to say that social services should be involved.

Here's why. If you have ever been to a Mark Warner resort you will know that there is (or used to be) a baby sitting service available whereby a nanny walks around the floors of the hotel while you dine in the restaurant somewhere else in the hotel. We have used this ourselves. Now, if someone was determined to abduct a child, they could walk into the hotel and take a child from the unlocked room while the nanny is walking on other floors, or is inside a room comforting a crying child. Like most hotels, people come and go without reception turning a hair. Security is usually incredibly lax in hotels and no-one knows who is staying there, who has come in just for a meal or drink and who is a friend of guests. Equally, someone could let themselves in/out of a downstairs window or back entrance if they did not want to walk past reception.

Are the critics suggesting that all the parents who have used such services should have their children taken away by social services?

Ditto with the baby listening services that people use in hotels when reception listen in for crying babies. A person of criminal intent could let themselves into the room, (assuming it had been left unlocked due to a fear of fire) and abduct a child.

You could be asleep in you house and someone could break in and take a baby/child while you were asleep. You could be sitting in the garden while you child was asleep in the house and the same thing could happen. Equally, in my experience, schools and hospitals are often extraordinarily lax about security with people coming and going. One of my daughters had to spend quite a bit of time in hospital and the staff were incredibly laissez-faire about security with hoards of people traipsing in and out of the ward day and night. Someone could easily have taken my child while I nipped off to the loo.

You could watch your child 24 hours a day and something bad could happen - a wierdo could grab them and hurt them etc. Someone was attacked in the park by a wierdo recently - if that had been a child, would the parents have been deemed neligent for allowing their children to walk (with them) in the park?

The point is - if someone is determined to snatch a baby/child, or do something horrible they will find a way to do it.

In terms of risk assessment, the most dangerous place for your child to be is near the road. Yet we all happily put our children in cars every day. Every single week children are killed in cars on the roads, driven by law-abiding, caring parents.

There is also a danger associated with babysitters. We used one for a stage who came highly recommended (she was a nanny at the creche at the prestigious Harbour Club in Chelsea). In fact, she was a criminal with a huge history of stealing. Another friend used one who again came with glowing references but who was in fact a serious drug-addict. I would rather have my children on their own in the house than locked up in a house with a drug addict/criminal.

There is also a danger of putting a child in a creche. One of mine was once badly attacked by another child and could have lost her eye. This would not have happened if she had not been in the creche.

See what I mean? There are risks associated with every single thing we do/don't do. In the context of the big bad world, the possibility of accidents and the reality that not all people looking after children are necessarily very responsible (and that other children can cause accidents), having the children sleeping nearby on their own might have seemed like the lesser of a number of evils.

Having said all that, I do not want to scare people. I do not think that there are bogeymen around every corner. We give our children quite a bit of freedom and do not worry. The main thing I worry about is road accidents as statistically this is by far the most dangerous place to be.

OP posts:
ELF1981 · 21/08/2007 12:43

Rhubarb, you could ask that of everything:

Why cant I leave my car unlocked on my drive way
Why cant I leave my front door unlocked
Why can I...

Because if you do, there always seems to be somebody who would want to take advatage of it.
And even if you dont, somebody can find a way.

whiskeyandbeer · 21/08/2007 12:45

"Shameful that people hide behind assumed names to launch their cowardly and spiteful posts against 2 parents who have lost their daughter"

i don't really see the point of this post on an internet forum?of course it is assumed names.
i voice my opinions on the subject in my real life just the same.

lucykate · 21/08/2007 12:46

miumau - are you a journalist wanting mnetters to write an article for you for free?

MiuMau · 21/08/2007 12:47

'And most importantly, why, in this day and age, can we not leave a sleeping child in safety? WHY do we have to be aware of paedophiles on every corner? WHY are our children not safe from these monsters?'

My answer to this important and valid question is that our societies don't begin to do enough to protect the vulnerable children. This is what I mean with too much understanding of the abusers in a broader sense. A solid society should be more proactive, not reactive.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 21/08/2007 12:47

Whiskey - MiuMau had never posted anything else on MN in that name, so either it is a regular namechanging or someone coming deliberately to a place where they don't know anyone to say it.

totaleclipse · 21/08/2007 12:50

So are you putting Kate and Gerry MaCann on the same scale as a pervert? it sounds that way.........there is no comparison, they made a huge mistake, perverts intend to hurt thier victims, the parents did not.

Rhubarb · 21/08/2007 12:50

They left their sleeping children together, in a room, in a family secure holiday complex, whilst they went to a restaurant. They could see the door and they checked on the children at regular intervals.

Sure, hindsight is a wonderful thing. They made a mistake, they are surely paying for it now. But I've done similar things with mine and looking back, I was very stupid at times. I guess I was lucky that there was no paedo lurking round the corner.

But if they hadn't taken that child that night, it would have been someone else's child. They wanted a child so they would have got one, one way or another.

aloha · 21/08/2007 12:52

"If you have a problem with things being stirred up, you must fundamentally have a problem with questioning things. I question the parents' approach to child rearing, which quite didn't work for obvious reasons.
Why do we resist questioning?
Why do we resist change?"

OR
If you have a problem with spiteful, hate-filled bile on a website you frequent frequently, perhaps you are just sick to the back teeth of it and find it repellent. I question your motives for carrying on with this behaviour.
Why do we resist vindictive posts about suffering parents?
Why do we resist weirdos who come to MN just to villify the McCanns?
Because we are not as cruel as you?

Rhubarb · 21/08/2007 12:53

well said aloha.

aloha · 21/08/2007 12:54

Sorry about 'frequent frequently' - not the most elegant terminology! But you get my meaning.

Hurlyburly · 21/08/2007 12:59

Rhubarb, you asked "And most importantly, why, in this day and age, can we not leave a sleeping child in safety?"

The point is that we shouldn't leave sleeping children alone. They might wake up, wander off, be ill, be subjected to burglary attempts etc. It's not about having a right to leave our children alone.

For me, it's about looking at this dispassionately and thinking well, I wouldn't have done that, that's not right, but phew, what an awful terrible thing to have happened to them for that piece of carelessness.

Rhubarb · 21/08/2007 13:03

Hurly, it is impossible to say that you would not have done that. I know a lot of things I thought I would never have done, but once I had kids I did do those things.

You do not know what the exact circumstances were. I have been told that those resorts are very secure and you need to show ID just to get into them. I don't know if they had any listening devices in there either.

I think it is wrong to say what you would or would not have done when you were not there and could not possibly know the exact circumstances.

aloha · 21/08/2007 13:06

well, tbh, I know I wouldn't have done it, because I know I wouldn't leave my kids in a hotel room unless I was a/still in the building b/I could hear them breathing on the intercom and c/the door was locked. Because I've done that about three times.

But lots of people think is abusive and neglectful etc etc to do that.

Gobbledigook · 21/08/2007 13:10

I know I wouldn't have done it. I'm neurotic about that kind of thing - there's no way. I wouldn't have been able to relax and enjoy a meal. That's just me but I know I can categorically say that I wouldn't do it. To me it's just unthinkable.

Not that it matters what I'd do.

Hurlyburly · 21/08/2007 13:12

Rhubarb, like Aloha, I do know I wouldn't have done it.

My reasons are different but essentially, because I know I wouldn't (and haven't) left my kids in a hotel room.

I have been on Mark Warner and Pierre et Vacances holidays. My understanding from the newspapers is that it was an apartment offsite, next to a road, in front of a swimming pool (which must've been locked and gated) and out of eyeline of the restaurant which was around 100 yards away. They were out of range for listening devices which were not in any case used.

I can say with total confidence that I wouldn't have done that. But to say that is not to be unsympathetic, you know. It's a nightmare situation for them.

aloha · 21/08/2007 13:14

It's why I choose self-catering holidays (cottage/villa rental) tbh
I don't really get the whole Mark Warner thing with little children.
When we took dsd to Forte Village - a similar but swankier set up with better security - we took dsd out with us to dinner every night. We were lucky though and had interconnecting rooms and a huge terrace, so sat there and shared a bottle of wine after dinner on several nights while dsd slept.
But hey, we were on a terrace, dsd was in the next room...

Hurlyburly · 21/08/2007 13:15

Yes, it's why I chose self-catering holidays too! Hotel rooms are impossible with small children, don't you think?

kookaburra · 21/08/2007 13:37

The point is that the complex the restaurant is in is secure - there is a security gate. The apartment was OUTSIDE that security gate - next to a main road (!) so if M wandered out looking for her parents she would not have been able to get into the Mark Warner complex anyway. Hardly like eating in our back garden - in that scenario a child could come and find its parents. It is disingenuous of the Mccanns to constantly peddle the myth that it is like dining in you your back garden - more like going to the local pub.

MiuMau · 21/08/2007 13:57

That is exactly what I was referring to, kookaburra, as I pointed out their campaign having misleading -to put it kindly- elements to it.

As I wrote previously, I doubt the parents would get more than a slap on their wrists, even if they were to be taken to court. Taking into account all the efforts they have made and all the important attention their case has brought on abduction and child trafficking related issues.

In the other hand, it is a society's failing too, not to inform parents sufficiently of possible dangers. We should be informed how kidnappers and other criminals operate and how serious the risks really are.

Hurlyburly · 21/08/2007 13:58

Kookaburra, I think the point that the OP is making is that she considers it an acceptable risk to leave infants alone in those circumstances. My feeling is that the majority of parents would not, but that's beside the point right now.

Yes, it might not have happened (or might not have happened to them) if they had been there, but the point is that it did happen.

So they have to direct their energies, as we all should, to helping to find her. It feels like a slim chance but the upside is that maybe other missing children might be found.

The other upside of this is that maybe other parents who might previously have thought that leaving infants home alone was an okay thing to do, might think twice now.

paulaplumpbottom · 21/08/2007 14:00

II agree, I think its od that they found it safe, what really interest me is why they thought it was safe? Was there a way that they could have been better informed?

SueW · 21/08/2007 14:11

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

ScottishMummy · 21/08/2007 14:14

dont want to get drawn into the how-could-they-leave-the-kids-debacle because frankly imo its irrelevent

critics should step back
deep breath
emapathise with the harrowing tramatic nightmare that is a missing child

reserve anger and vitriolic comments for the person/persons unknown responsible for this heinous crime

the MCCanns will relive and regret that decision til their dying days - so we dont have to pour over it too

compassion please for a family going thru hell

scienceteacher · 21/08/2007 14:28

To me it's about choices. We all have choices in everything we do.

The McCann's had a choice that night - they could have done several things with their children - had them come out to supper with them, had one of their party babysit, used the babysitting service or evening creche, had a takeaway on the verandah, or done what they did. Short of not checking on them at all, they picked the riskiest choice - not just from an abduction viewpoint, but from a general safety one.

They have paid very dearly for their choice, well over the odds. We don't need to punish them anymore than has already happened. But we do need to learn from them, so it's important to discuss.

As for media, the McCann's are using the media to keep up the attention on finding Madeleine. This is completely the right thing to do. I'm sure they feel that any negative press they get is a price worth paying. Our discussing it here is keeping it in our minds - we may come across a little girl with an unusual eye and remember - something that may not be noticed if we didn't have these threads.

expatinscotland · 21/08/2007 14:30

Well said, scienceteacher.