'Stressed' father batters his 2 yr old daughter

[Lovecat]

story here

Poor little girl. It says he's been sectioned, shame he couldn't have gotten help sooner...

Hatrick - Why would I tell you that? It's personal and it's private and it's none of your business.

You don't divulge personal information like that on an internet message board. Especially not about another person, and especially when that person is a policeman.

What would you ask me to do that?

BTW I am in no way a city exec. Nor do I have anyone in my close family and friends who have mental health issues (not sure about extended family?) However as part of my job I do work with prisoners, some of whom have committed murder, and some of whom (not nec the same ones) have mental health problems.

People do tend to get confused between the defence of insanity (which is used very rarely indeed in England and Wales), and that of diminished reponsibility (only available in homicide cases), which is used very much more commonly. Insanity implies complete absolution from criminal responsibility (ie you are not guilty) and the legal test for it is very high and difficult to fulfil. Nearly everyone who comits a homicide while seriously mentally ill will plead diminished instead. Pleading this does not imply that you are absolved of responsibility and you are still pleading guilty to a crime (that of manslaughter rather than murder).

And as I said below I think it's a much wose consequence if you're found insane because you can be locked up forever and life means life.

I didn't say that most murderers use insanity as a defence (or at least I didn't mean to). I said that most murderers claim insanity - i.e. they do so when arrested.

It's the oldest trick in the book. I don't know what all the scepticism is about.

This is a very sad story indeed. That poor family is ruined. A few things to add: firstly, all reports I read stated that mum did try to defend her daughter. Secondly, someone brought to police cells would usually be seen by an FME (police doctor) who would then contact a psychiatrist and a social worker. In most cases 3 professionals have seen the patient. If he is on a section 2 he will be assessed for 28 days. If found to be suffering from a mental illness or disorder this period can be extended by converting it to a section 3 which is a treatment order. However, he can still be medicated on a section 2. I have never yet met anyone who succeeded in fooling nurses, doctors and social workers for 28 days. Sometimes people are discharged/sent to prison before the 28 days are up. Many people with mental health problems hold down jobs. My cousin has bipolar disorder and is a midwife. Thankfully her employer is vey supportive. So little is known about this man's history and his wife is in too much distress to talk. Maybe she wouldn't want to divulge info about any previous mental health problems. I don't want to slate the police as they do a difficult job but ime they often meddle with mental health issues. I have often heard them telling me I should admit someone to our assessment suite as they are schizophrenic when they know nothing about diagnoses. On the other hand they try to bring people in who are off their face on drugs/alcohol instead of taking them to cells to dry out - sometimes I can even smell the alcohol through the police van window and they still try and insist that the individual hasn't had any alcohol. Anyway, I digress. There was a woman in Thornton Heath who recently battered her children to death who was also detained under the mental health act. As in this case there wasn't much information.

But bobbymum - some may try and claim it, but most are dismissed very quickly. This man has not been dismissed. It has been taken frther. He has has 3 professionals at least assess him and he has been sectioned as a result. You can't just pretend that level of mental health problem IMO. That is why some people are expressing concern for the whole family, including the man himself - this man has been found to be very ill.

If you are found not guilty by reason of insanity, no you are not necessarily "locked up forever". You are "sectioned" and kept in hospital exactly the same as if you had pleaded guilty to diminished responsibility.(the actual "section" in the law is a different one but there is no practical difference in what actually happens to you).

You are then, as everyone else who is detained in hospital, entitled to regular Mental Health Review Tribunals which consider whether you still need to be kept in hospital. If and when you can prove to the Tribunal that you no longer need to be in hospital, then you are released (just as for any other "sectioned" patient).

Xenia, you can't say that "life means life" when it comes to insanity. If you are found to have been insane then you are not guilty of any crime and therefore cannot get a prison sentence of any kind, never mind life. You can however get a hospital order instaed, as I explained below.

That's all I meant and I also meant that you may not then be released for a very long time, much longer than if you'd been found guilty of murder. It's not fun losing rights that way. The point I was trying to make is being sectioned and faking if that were possible some mental condition is not going to get you a better result. It could mean you're locked for much longer in Broadmoor etc

Yes, it is certainly true that many people who get hospital orders rather than prison sentences end up spending longer "locked away", I do agree with that. The time is dependent on the person's mental state and the risk they pose. Some people get better within a year or two. Some never do,even after thirty years. It is very individual.

Xenia I said the same on Wednesday. Somehow - and it would be almost impossible - managing to appear so seriously mentally ill as to be admitted to eg Broadmoor is in no way better and often worse than a sentence for murder.

That's why I can't understand Bobbysmum harping on about it.

What sort of mental state would you expect him to be in? He'd just battered his baby to death.

Lots of prioners are sectioned after being arrested. Doesn't mean they have long term mental health issues.

He's got a life sentence whatever the outcome. If he remains ill and never gets an understanding of what he's done, he may well end up on one of the long term sections in a secure unit, being monitored by the Home Office. But if he gets better and does get an understanding he will have to live with what he has done to his daughter. Poor man, it's so tragic . And for his wife too .

We don't really know much at all about him or the incident.

I certainly sometimes think of Ernest Saunders who had dementia so avoided his Guiness fraud trial and then I think became the first person in history to recover from dementia.

"Lots of prioners are sectioned after being arrested"

Bobbysmum
Where's your evidence for this - links please?.
I personally find your views highly disturbing.

People are not sectioned on a whim - I have actually read about Section 2 and it is very serious indeed.

As I have said before mental illness is no respector of persons. Just because he had a nice place to live and a well paid job did not somehow make him more immune than another to mental illness.

Xenia,

Some more info for you re this case as you brought it up:-

Saunders, Ronson and Parnes were sentenced to periods ranging from 12 months to five years.

Ronson, 51, was also fined £5m.

Saunders was freed after only 10 months of his 30 month sentence when doctors diagnosed him as suffering from dementia.

Lyons, 74, escaped jail because of ill health but was stripped of his knighthood and fined £3m.

In 1996 Saunders' conviction was ruled "unsafe" by the European Court of Human Rights.

In 2000 the court reached the same verdict in cases brought by the remaining three. However, in 2001 the UK's Court of Appeal threw out the men's claim not to have received a fair trial.

bobbysmum you don't know enough about mental illness and have shown you are not willing to learn more. It would therefore be better if you refrained from judging this man.

bobbysmum, you seem to imply that he was in a distressed mental state as a result of just battering his baby! I would have thought that even as an outsider without knowing the facts, that due to the fact of his being sectioned which is a serious and grave process undertaken by professionals, we are safe to assume that his mental distress was a causal factor of his abuse of the child, not a result of it.

I would also like to know on what evidence you are basing your claims about many people being sectioned after arrest but NOT suffering long term mental health problems. I've worked for many years in mental health and I have not come accross anyone who has been sectioned who has NOT had long term mental illness.

Yes, but A he was reported to have recovered from the dementia which was the point I was making. I'm sure most people aren't able to make things up. Indeed historically and worldwide locking up your enemies or your wife because they're "mad" (when they aren't) has always been a major problem.

People are sectioned after arrest for trying to harm themselves for one thing.

Wasn't Ian Huntley sectioned for a bit?

I have so much sympathy for this family .

As many know, my Dh survived serious mental health problems that led to suicide attempts. he is well now foryunately but even when he was so severly ill that the police were tracking him down after he phoned me from a service station to say he was going to kill himself then hung up, nobody offered any advice or idea of sectioning (which in retrospect was a great shame for him).

Mental illness is horendous. I wish I ahd links to some of the threads at that time, when DH would go off and I ahd no idea if would ahrm himself or just comoe back in an hour.

At the time I coudnt have left him with the kids (I guess I was fortunate in that I had nursed mental health anyhow, but also that his depression was progressive and as such I was aware of the risks). Had he ahrmed them though (which he never did) it wouldn't have been nastiness, it would have been pain and halplessness.

AS I said, I have nothing but sympathy and sadness for this family. Mental health is still such a taboo, and those who do suffer often don't ask for help because of their fears of how it will affect them job wise etc. Depression still gets seena s a skive or minor issue, for example. When actually what is needed is for people to relaise its just as bad as any other illness and just as indiscriminate in who it affects. And that Psychs aren't quacks who just section peolpe or diagnose on a whim- they're experienced professionals.

I dont know enough about this case to know whether itr was preventable or not, sounds not tbh. Howefver I think if only mental health was opened up a lot of poeple would be saved (from violence, abuse, personal suffering, shame or just caring pressures)

Can I just say the following?

• People in high position jobs can suffer from mental problems but still function in their job for a while. My dad suffered a nervous breakdown a few years ago and managed to complete his work as branch manager making stressful decisions for sometime, it was only right when the episode peaked that he took time off work.

• it was said earlier in the thread that we could all have children who grow up to have mental issues, I second the post saying we do not need to hear that - its bad enough at the moment what we have to shield our children away from and what we have to worry about without second guessing that our toddlers will grow into adults who will snap and harm somebody.

Dunno Elf, my kids extra likely to have mental health isues due to ASD and links with depression, I have to say sympathy for those who can't handle the ntion entirely mimited.. Harsh but there it is.

As for the high functioning jobs though I second that- my Dh was a transport manager in an exceptionally stressful company at the time (still isa ctually but different employers).