The government doctors advice has changed now it is NO alcohol in pregnancy ane when trying to conceive at all

[zippitippi]

.....

early alcohol can damage the egg and cause miscarriage and facial deformities, later it can cause a spectrum of brain damage and low birth weight

so the new advice is abstinence

this brings this country into line with eg the US

interestingly obstetricians are sticking with 1 to 2 units a week

times online

I would have to. I can't believe they have to tell people.

no reply to my point about women do in fact drink more now than ever before not less and so this helps to adjust thinking

I think the hard aprt is that no woman wants to think they might be or have done any damage...and most probably they haven't but why take the risk just because science has not proved it yet?

and why object to a simple easy to understand message of no alcohol..you can ignore it obviously, it's not like seat belt law

I think pregnant women have a relatively high level of freedom, actually

we have a situation where it is illegal to give any amount of alcohol to a child under 5, but legal to drink while pregnant (so giving alcohol to a very young and vulnerable child indeed)

like you zippi I find it interesting

one new thing I heard this morning..new to me that is..is that alcohol could damage the egg

was mentioned by dr rosemary on bbc ( a popular figure I know }

alcohol does reach the foetus very easily that is a scientific fact isn't it?

What about men? are they being advised BY THE GOVERNMENT not to drink at all when ttc with their partner?
after all alcohol is supposed to affect the quality of sperm. If men were advised of this how many of them would comply?

the government doesn't say it but yes it does affect sperm

I am interested to know why people don't like to believe the idea of alcohol potentially affecting the foetus without an incontrovertible study, wouldn't you prefer to take no risk over this?

"It's scaremongering, anti-women bullshit"

antiwomen???

they don't want women to drink during pregnancy. they aren't trying to take away the vote FFS. have some perspective.
In Canada they recommend obstaining from alcohol. has been like that for decades, why are we suddenly figuring out now??

zippi: my grandmother was actively encouraged to drink Guinness daily while pregnant as it was thought to help the baby. My MIL recalls several times she got absolutely plastered then thought she might refuse the next glass of wine because the baby's movements were a bit less than normal.

The advice to only drink 1-2 units a week is fairly recent and WAS based on proper scientific evidence. The move to no units is not based on scientific evidence.

There is no such thing as no risk.

Next we'll be saying pregnant women shouldn't use computers or a mobile phone "just in case". For gods sake don't let them cross the road, they can't be trusted to judge speed correctly with all those hormones. I know let's just herd all pregnant women into special centres so we can keep an eye on them and stop them doing anything silly (oh wait... that last one might actually cost us money, better not do that).

There was other advice I ignored too. Ignored the runny egg one as I craved soft boiled eggs and soldiers. I did the research, made sure I got free range, lions marked eggs (that's hens vaccinated against salmonella) and decided the risk was small enough to not be significant. Other pregnant women won't want to take that risk and that's fine.

There's an increasing movement in parenting these days that if you're not in full martyr mode, not sacrificing everything, actually happy then somehow you're a crap parent and neglecting your children. For gods sake, you're not supposed to ENJOY parenthood! It's a big sacrifice for the human race, donchaknow.

There was a time when having children was just a state of being, something that you did, not a whole "life choice" that you needed to validate at every turn by self-flagellation.

I think the idea is that the advice is pro children's safety and protection rather than about women's rights

it isn't law it is advice

"pro children's safety and protection" - no it's not. There is NO EVIDENCE that 1-2 units a week does any harm to the child whatsoever.

There is PLENTY OF EVIDENCE that not getting plastered every night while pregnant does protect children.

Partly because of the no-alcohol-while-TTC thing, which does sound a bit like a no-alcohol-for-women IN CASE they might be pregnant. Also, some types of childhood problems seem to be being explained as could be due to having drunk alcohol in pregnancy (with no definite proof one way or the other) which strikes me as a way to make anyone who has a child with problems feel even worse to no purpose. Sometimes birth defect do just happen, despite the parents taking the best possible care of their health both before and during the pregnancy. It does seem as though, when a child is born with some kinds of problem, the first reaction is: this must be due to somethign the mother did, which is both unhelpful and cruel (and it's hardly ever: what did the FATHER do even when the father was a dope-smoking alocholic who beat the mother).Also am with BB on this: why is there no advice for MEN to stop or cut down their drinking when TTC, or to stop smoking when their partners are pregnant?

but doesn't your own thinking suggest that alcohol won't benefit a foetus and may be damaging....it effects different people differently ie susceptibly of adults is different in different people so most likely the same is true for unborn babies

yes franny the baby has protection from alcohol once it is born...you are interested too then

I was certainly not suggesting that all children with disorders have been damaged by anything that would be wrong completely, I tried to be careful to make that clear but I apologise for not making it clear

No way I want to suggest that and I don't believe it either

sorry fio if that is how it came across

I'm not sure the argument that advising no alcohol will stop those who drink more than 1-2 units from drinking altogether works. Surely if you can't understand (or don't know of it or ignore it) that you should only drink 1-2 units then you're not going to take notice of this.

As for comparing it to smoking - only yesterday a friend's dh was telling me that when his dw was in hospital having her dts he overheard 2 women about to give birth extolling the virtues of smoking so they would have small babies (and yes they were outside having a cigarette at the time). So, some people don't believe/understand/take notice of the no smoking either.

FWIW - I'm in the 1-2 units a week camp. As for whilst ttc, a lot of people do cut down/stop as it is recognised as better for fertility. However, my life is miserable enough as I approach a year of ttc no2 - if I gave up my weekend glasses of wine I think that might just finish me off.

i didn't drink in early pregnancy because it like everything else made me throw up, later on i may have had the odd glass but again that made me feel sick.

However the scientist in me says show me the research.

The peanut argument doesn't hold too much weight with me since in the US where peanut butter is a staple peannut allergies are less. Therefore you'd think that all those pregnant women consuimng tonnes of peanuts would equal a higher number of penaut allergies if the link was true.

And afIk there is no evidence to show that there are lower levels of SN, based on the alchol intake, of different countries.

Drinking small amounts of (usually) wine with meals is the norm for PG women on the continent. If there was an effect of small amonts of alcohol you would expect to see higher cases in France, Italu and Spain, for example.

I think that this is targetting the wrong group of women. i'm not 'seeking to justify my alcohol intake', I'm irrateted because women will be made to feel guity for no sceintifically proven reason. And those woemn who are at risk of having a baby with FAS will ignore the advice.

Far better to spend the time, effort and money targetting those women who's babies are at risk....in and out of the womb, rather than release a blanket edict, which lacks proof, will worry the majority of women without need and will totaly fail to help those who are at risk.

I don't mind the government giving this advice and think it is a less ambiguous message (I've argued this before on mn not very well that time either probably)

Interesting quote on the bbc article:

"Women who are already pregnant and who have followed the earlier advice "will not have put themselves or their baby at risk", the Department reassured."

So if they or their baby wouldn't have been at risk with the old guidelines, just WHAT are they basing the new guidelines on?

and I don't see what is ambigious in 'one or two units, once or twice a week, maximum'

Better to spent money actually sopprting alcoholic women,. Not only will this make it more liekly that their babies will not have FAS, it aslo means their childhood will not be affecticed by having an alcoholic parent.

But that takes time, and lots of money. Easier for the government to look good by sending out a press release.

RD, they are not basing the new advice on any new evidence at all. This was made clear on the Radio 4 news this morning.