In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

lostpuppy you should never have started this thread in the first place so yes go away

Custy how extremely good to see you back

LostPuppy you really are a complete d!ckhead.

If people are going to invoke 'freedom of speech' at every bloody turn in order to defend any manner of tasteless
comment, I think I'll invoke it too...as well as the defence of 'fair comment'.

Thanks

The posters that really surprise me are those that suggest the McCanns are doctors (gee whizz) as well as parents therefore their risk evaluation is somehow doubly sacrosanct, better, unquestionable etc etc. There are two lines of argument here. The first is that doctors are somehow special and the second is that the parents' judgement is somehow inviolable.

I don't buy either of those two aspects at all, because:

(i)In my experience, doctors can be just as confused, mistaken, pig-headed and selfish as the rest of the human race.

(ii) Ditto parents. The vast majority of people I have discussed this with would never have left three children under four, at least one of whom was out of a cot and therefore mobile, in another building. Out of earshot, out of sight, with no monitor, listening service or babysitter. With an unlocked door. If you look at the legal opinion on the Alphamummy site this did breach the law.

So whilst I am desperately sorry for the McCanns, I think they actually broke the law. The value of this debate is that it teaches all parents everywhere what the law is and also where the boundaries are.

Haven't we all done stupid things because we didn't really know where the boundaries were? I have. It happens when I know what I should do, but somehow I think I'll get away with it, it'll be okay this once (twice, three times, the whole holiday...).

there is a difference between freedom of speech to express an opinion on an actual matter and freedom of speech to be allowed to hurl personal insults. The first can be done inteligently, the second... absolutely nothing inteligent about that.

Hatrick, give it a rest, please.

Freedom of speech is opf course a cornerstone of our democratic society blah di blah blah...it is also raked up at every opportunity on internet forums to defend all sorts of abhorent, nasty little digs like those in the OP. If we are genuinely having the sort of 'debate' we would have at the schoolgates, then please, allow me to express myself freely, because I would indeed be calling LostPuppy a dickhead if I were standing face to face with him/her.

Quattro - I am shock horror in agreement with your summing up. It is, however, a world aweay fromwhat the OP actually said though, i think you'll agree.

I don't agree with abusive behaviour. It is a form of bullying and aggression. Parents come on here to exchange views, ideas and debate with other parents. They don't come on here to be told to fuck off. People behaving like this are what gives Mumsnet a bad name.

I think we all know in the grown up world that the odd swear word or insult hurled have are no reflection on intelligence or lack of. I would also argue that some of the most eloquent and prettily-worded posts on this thread have been among the most insulting.

oh, funny that Quattro. It was only last night you were hurling 'Al Qaeda' taunts about.

all the little tongues go clack clack clack eh?

pmsl

I think many reasonable people would have told LostPuppy to fuck right off if he/she had voiced that original sentiment at the school gates or whatever.

(Going off to congratulate myself on how restrained I actually am with a nice cup of nescafe...oops, I mean fairtrade coffee...)

I guess it depends on the kinds of people you associate with. I think it's possible to disagree with someone without the need to turn it into a personal row or to resort to the use of fowl language which, IMO, adds nothing inteligent at all and lowers one to the level of the person being disagreed with. hardly makes an inteligent conversation does it... "I think x is a bad parent" "oh fuck off". ... nope. nothing inteligent I could take from either side of that..

Bosscat...so, you saying then, because they paid a bomb for a obviosuly unsuitable Holiday (when you ahve small children)...so, they shouldn't be blamed now? I am sorry... they still acted iresponsible and I would go as far as to say that all other parents with young children going on that holiday resort are also irresponsible....if you want to spend time alone as a couple, then get something else organised for your KIds, or take a Nanny on Holiday wihtyou or whatever...but leaving young children unattended at night in a Hotel room is just not a safe option, as this case clearly highlights....!
Baysmum...sorry, but that is what that post came across in saying.
Wannabe....indeed...agree again....
montmerency, of course the predetor is the one to blame for taking her and everything...but that doesn't leave the parents without guilt....does it?
Tough Daddy...I think my problem here is, that the biggest price paid here is by a little innocent girl....
Belgian bun, was that to me....I am sorry, I have no idea how many people there are posting on mn, I just know there are many , so sorry, I can't remember each and everyones personal circumstances and what they posted on other threads ( I possibly wasn't even involved in)...
mamazon, you can't compare those situations.....no one is saying that they got what they deserve...that would be awwful. People are just saying that clearly the parents are not without guilt...as commonsense should tell you it's not a great idea to leave young children alone in a Hotelreason for numerous reasons...
chestnutter....what a load of rubbish, sorry!
Drosophilia, my mum used to go out or work at night in town, and leave me and my sister(she is 4 years older then me) alone in our flat, the neighbour above knew we were on our own and had a key and my sister knew to go to her in case anything happened...my mum now (not because of this case I may add) told me, that she really doens't know what on earth she was thinking then...she says about herself, that she was so iresponsible and would never forgive me if I ever do such a thing with my Kids....but back then in the 70's I suppose it maybe was a more normal thing to do. Doesn't make it a safe or right thing of course....
Sophable, IF Madeleine is dead, then she will have suffered until then...surely Must say, call me a optimist, but I personally don't think that just ebcause she ahsn't been found yet, that it necessarily means it's to late. I personally wouldn't want to speculate that part, think it's bad karma.

To be honest, this case aside, I am shocked at how many people think it's apparently o.k. to leave 3 very young children alone in a Hotelbedroom....do people really think that that is o.k.? Because, then why isn't it o.k. to do the same at home...! Surely people don't really feel it's o.k., but don't want to be seen as nasty for saying it out loud.

back with coffee in hand.

@wannabe - I must mix wirth dreaful working class oik types, then, I suppose. Not the type to send their children on those awful MW holidays. or the type to stand around harping on about what a terrible mistake thos eparents have made when their little girl is still missing.

Anyway - let's agree to stop sniping. Its killing the 'debate'.
@mildmannered - this is the point I think some of us have been trying to make. Its kind of got lost, now, though. I haven't been trying to stifle debate on the subject (a bit pointless, really, especially on MN - but it would have been nice of one single person with an opposing opinion had recignised the point). Tut tut. And I'm bad mannered?

They act perfectly appropriately and within the law. I would have done the same thing if I had a villa at centre parks close to where I ate (we never did as it was a huge cycle ride away so not didn't feel like going downstairs which it does in these Mark W places).

It is not illegal to leave children in the UK. It is illegal to neglect them and the courts decide what that means. In fact I would say over cautious parents damage their children more. It's the acceptance of risk and managing it properly which leads to well adjusted competent children. Far too many parents molly coddle their children and they emerge as incompetent adults.

Actualyl to say an act has been done illegally by these parents when it is not ilegal is technically libellous so I'd make sure you were posting from a computer that cannot be tracked back to by the way. There is no immunity from libel proceedings on line. You can state a view like in my view it is wrong.

May be libel damages from those who libel them could be used to fund the hunt.

That's very interesting Xenia, especially about what you said about overcautious parents damaging their children more.

Xenia, i am agreeing with you too much these days. I must get out more.

and as i've said before, if you haven't holidayed in one of these resorts you really aren't in a position to comment as you cannot understand.

Whether the parents were right or wrong in doing what they did, I feel it really doesn't need to be pointed out in various threads and discussions. It is taking the attention away from the pure evil scum that has taken this poor little pea away. They would be very pleased to see that people are far more interested in blaming the parents than focusing the blame on them.

Come on.....bickering isn't going to get this little girl home safely is it. Its a really awful event we can all learn lessons from. Please don't let the bastards that did this get away with a lighter sentance, the parents are suffering enough.

Xenia, surely keeping your children save at night is NOT mollicoddling them...these children were 2 and nearly 4 at the time....not 10 year olds or whatever....
personally my problem is the age of these children, as at that age children just aren't save to be left unsupervised.