In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

lula, where is anyone saying they don't want the perpetrator to be punished?
No one is saying or implying that.
BUt, I still think that the risk those parents took was not a risk I personally would take !
ANd Amidaiwish.....why can't people comment because they haven't been on one of those crappy holidays...what a lot of rubbish.

I have often done it. I'm happy to say publicly I have and leave British police to prosecute me. It's not illegal. It's no different from going downstairs in the very big houses some of us live in and eat dinner in the garden on a hot day. Yes, they're young but a lot of us have chidlren who at that age would sleep and it's better to get them off to sleep and then go over to eat. You go back regularly to check. They are locked in. They are safer than if you were on the patio with the door open and someone could sneak in. The first thing you do when you arrive is baby safety the place and look out for risk hazards which we always did and I'm sure most parents do.

Most children in real life are more likely to be killed by a parent or friend and most accidents are in the home anyway so the risk of strangers is hugely minimal.

There aer two things... ways of parenting we might not agree with (fine - I think hitting a child should always be a crime and I think some parents shoult at their children too much and shouldn't swear at them) and then secondly are things that are illegal. This one falls into an area where some people think is fine and others don't although you do have to be careful to check laws abroad.

People have been arrested in the US for leaving sleeping children in hotel bed rooms whilst they went downstairs to eat which in other cultures is accepted. In some US states gay male sex, a nal sex and even oral sex are criminal offences. You have to check out your local laws before you travel anywhere.

I actually think though that there are two arguments here. One of responsibility, and one of deserved consequence.

Let?s say I walk to school every day with my ds. Every day I have to cross a busy road, and some days I?m in a hurry, so we hurry across the road without looking properly, and usually, there are no cars, or those cars that are coming stop to let us cross. Is that responsible? Absolutely not. Then let?s say one day I hurry across the road and a car coming doesn?t stop and my child is hit and sustains serious injury, or worse, is killed. Did I deserve for that to happen? Absolutely not. But it doesn?t take away from the fact that the way I acted in not looking properly when crossing the road was irresponsible.

The Mccanns absolutely did not deserve for their child to be abducted, but that doesn?t mean that it?s wrong to say that leaving three small children unsupervised in an apartment with the door unlocked and going to eat in a place where you can neither see nor hear them is irresponsible. Laying blame on the parents is not going to bring Madeleine back, but having the discussion as to whether it is/isn?t appropriate to leave small children may make some people stop and think and prevent someone from doing it which may prevent something like this, or even a child wandering out of an apartment happening in the future.

And as for this ?only those on a mark warner holiday would understand and are able to comment? talk, what a load of rubbish. Mark warner is not an exclusive club. The parents who go on mark warner holidays are not genetically different from other parents. That would be like saying only those with money can afford to go on the types of holidays where it is safe to leave your children. It?s either appropriate, or it isn?t, safety is not exclusive to mark warner.

Thats not what I'm saying....what I'm saying is a whole thread...and more has been dedicated to pointing the finger at the parents. It goes without saying that they will be regretting their actions FGS!!

Stop rubbing it in...its done...what good can come of persistantly reminding the world of what the parents did?
What about what the abductor/s did??

Xenia - it is absolute nonsense to say that assessing the legal rights and wrongs is defamatory. It is all opinion. Your opinion is that they acted within the law. You have not so far explained why you think that they did act within the law so perhaps your opinion is not founded upon an analysis of the law. It sounded like you were weighing in with an opinion that is not thought through.

Yes it is possible to mollycoddle children and be overprotective. But a three year old has no sense of danger and should not be left alone at night. Surely that's common sense not mollycoddling.

Wannabe

That's the most intelligent assessment I have read on Mumsnet.

Or....alternatively ....you can all carry on argueing!! This is when MN really hacks me off.
I hope the parents and their families don't actually know about these threads.

of course people who have not stayed in a Mark warner complex (although this isn't exclusively Mark warner)can comment and understand. Different places have different configurations and looking at the plan of this one it doesn't lend itself to leaving children. There are lots of risks for tiny children left alone in unfamiliar surroundings. As aholidaymaker it is even hard to know what the fire precautions are, whether their are potential electric al faults

We once went on a holiday to Oralndo and stayed on International drive Unfortunately the hotel rooms were not particularly nice and were on external corridors like balconies with the door to each room opening onto this rather than being internal. it felt more like a motel and although the children were older we felt having children in one room and parents in the other was too greater risk. So holiday was spent with mum in one room and dad in the other. Also done this in overnight stops in france when the rooms have not been next to each other. It doesn't spoil the holiday. It is alot easier when you have a home from home arrangment with a self catered cottage.

So nothing to add just find it strange that Mark warnerites can't understand that apart from the cost lots of people avoid all inclusive and hotel holidays for precisely the reason that they aren't child friendly and safe.

Xenia - another point which has emerged is that the children were not locked in. The patio door was left unlocked. Personally I am not sure which is more dangerous, locking a child in so that she can't get out (think illness, fire etc) or leaving the doors open (think wandering out onto main roads etc).

Have you really left toddlers (not babies in cots who can't get out) in different buildings, while you went out?

How did you know that your toddlers would not wake up?

Qu, I didn't say that. Read what I posted. I said if anyone said the McCanns had broken the law when they didn't is defamatory. it's like someone saying "Xenia is a thief". If that isn't true I can sue them. If instead someone said I think Xenia is a thief, that's fine although sometimes the innuendo is enough to amount to defamation.

Arguing about whether or not leaving children in a room is obviously legal and I'm all for people debating things but you need to keep the right side of the defamation line, that was my only point.

my greatest fear is fire ... my exh is a forensic fire investigator and fire is a very real risk...it is shocking how many fires/carbon monoxide cases there are and how difficult to escape from hotel rooms can be and how many fire precautions and safety checks are flouted..many of these complexes are jerry built with out the correct fire breaks

but I know that is irrelevant just a suggestion that people do check these things when they arrive in a resort and have an escape plan, check if they can open windows wide enough to escape etc

I keep thinking of the reaction on MN if I started a thread saying

"Feel like going out, have no babysitter, so we're leaving the kids in alone and will check them every half hour"

I'd be absolutely hounded and vilified

Or would some of you actually respond "yeah thats what I'd do, great idea toomuchtodo"?

add to that

"Feel like going out, have no babysitter, so we're leaving the kids in alone and will check them every half hour. And we'll leave the door unlocked"

Depends what you mean by going out. I have often sat in the garden at home whilst small children are sleep upstairs. That is really all they did here. Can't see why anyone has a problem with it.

Going out usually implies you leave the premises are a bit further then just your garden (saying that, lol, our garden is massive, and I would not sit at the top of the garden on an evening if my Kids were in teh House asleep, as I wouldn't hear a think)!
And yes, tomuchtodo, you would absolutely be vilified.

Xenia you must have a hell of a big garden then

to go by the newspaper photo, you couldn't actually see the front door of the apartment from the bar they were in and who knows if they were sitting inside or outside the bar.

even if you were sitting staring at the apartment the kids were sleeping in, if someone suddenly ran out clutching a child they would be able to get away in a car before you'd run back to the apartment to see what was going on

they shouldn't have been left, end of.

Well if you'd read the earlier posts, toomuchtodo, you would understand that apparently the normal practices of caring parents get suspended on holiday. Particularly Mark Warner holidays, it seems. Halcyon days!

So what is illegal in the UK (and Portugal too for that matter) is suddenly just fine and dandy on holiday. Myself, I am not going to stop at abandoning my infants. That's pretty tame. Let's go in for lawbreaking bigtime.

Anyone for drug trafficking?

lol Quattro ( I so do agree with your posts...you are so much more eloquent then I am myself....so is wannabe...but then, it's not a big thing to be more eloquent then me, I suppose, lol)

I do disagree with the illegal statement as it is discretionary judgement and not illegal and in many many situations there is no public interest in prosecution and also would ther e not be a defence of the reasonable person and the many people who do the same on a mark warner holiday would be useful for the defense

I have left kids indoors whilst in the garden, i did this yesterday while i cut the hedge outside.

Our local pub is the same distance as the bar was from the McCanns apartment, i would'nt even consider going to the pub whilst they are in bed but thats me, im sure the McCanns were sure their kids would be safe as they were in a child friendly area. I also believe that this person/people who took little Madeleine planned to take a child and if they did'nt take Madeleine they would of took another child.
I don't think it is for us to judge, they will have to live with this for the rest of their lives, i just hope there is a happy ending and soon.

vast difference between sitting in your garden and going to a restaurant on a public premises. If I'm in my garden my ds might wake up and come looking for me in the house. he never has, but he might. He might wander round the house, calling me. if he didn't find me he might go into the lounge, and there he would probably see me in the garden, or even walk out the patio doors into the garden. But he would still be on my property. He couldn't get out of the front door because the yale lock is too high for him to reach so that's not a risk. And he would find me, somewhere on my property.

But if we were in one of these resorts he might wake up and go looking. wouldn't find me in the apartment, so might open the door to outside, a door which would be relatively easy to open as it was left unlocked. And as soon as he sets foot outside he's on public property. walking amongst people he doesn't know. in an area he doesn't know. past a swimming pool, past a road. Where would he begin to look. He wouldn't know. And all the while he's in a public place. on his own.

That is the difference.

Having worked with children who have come to school with their faces battered, and reported it, only to be told that since the child has said they 'fell off their bike' the police could do 'nothing, you'd be amazed what people do in the UK and get away with.

to me being abroad makes it so much more dangerous, God knows who would have the keys to these apartments

whilst I can't understand is the posters on MN who would answer "thats fine" to me posting that we were going out with no sitter

"Anyone for drug trafficking? "

Your interpretation is that the McCanns action broke the UK law - but as the law has a wide margin for interpretation, to equate it with a conscious and unequivocally illegal act such as drug trafficking is sensationalist and not in keeping with the rational tone you purport to uphold.

Actually, comparing the McCanns - and other parents who develop a sense of security within the MW-style of holiday with drug trafficking is unjust and unpleasant.