In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

look at the title of the thread for a start! Why does the discussion have be on whether parents are to blame? Much of the thread was about casting blame on this little girls case. This is very bad manners in many peole's books. And writing down venomous views in a public medium risk causing offense, not withstanding your right to free speech.

The BNP and National front have a right to exist and say what they want in this great country but they cause me great offense and possibly incite some to act against others. So please don't conclude that free speech is priceless.

Nobody has written anything defamatory have they?

The OP is all clearly opinion. I think we're okay.

By the way what does the expression "off the bat" mean?

QuattroCento - will you, perhaps, be airbrushing your own performance by apologising for your rude and bitchy comment to Dinosaur then?

The law is not clear because it does not state an
age when children can be left alone. But parents
can be prosecuted for wilful neglect if they leave
a child unsupervised ?in a manner likely to cause
unnecessary suffering or injury to health?
(Children and Young Persons Act 1933).
Nor does the law state an age when young
people can babysit. However, where a baby-sitter
is under the age of 16 years, parents remain legally
responsible to ensure that their child comes to
no harm.
[source www.nspcc.org.uk]

For more info there is a pdf file file you can look/print called 'home alone'

I am not here to judge, but offer some facts from the nspcc.

defamation and offense are not synonyms!

ToughDaddy

What you are effectively saying is that anyone who disagrees with you is venomous.

You are saying that we have no right to comment ... because ... the timing is wrong or insensitive.

Pish and tosh. When a topic is topical of course it will be discussed. The legal rights and wrongs are important.

Dearie me, I have to say that it's the first time I have been likened to a member of the BNP!

Free speech does have a price. Nut censorship has a bigger one.

All I can think of is that little girl and whilst I think perhaps the judgement of the parents is not what mine would be I feel immense sympathy for them. Parents have done far worse than this over the years and not because they are selfish but because we don't always see the risks.

My Dad left my older brother and sister on their own and my brother (4) walked about 10 mins on a main road in his pjs to ask a neighbour to look after him and my sister. Despite this Dad did it again. Eventually my Mum never left us on our own with him. My Dad cared about us he just thought it was ok to leave young kids asleep in bed and wander the fields (farmer) as I suspect farmers have done for generations.

Just to clarify as there seems to be a bit of confusion over what I meant...

"leaving 3 babies under the age of 4 in a ground floor flat and in a back bedroom right beside a road."

The ground floor flat, back bedroom, beside room is where Madeleine and her siblings were left. I maybe should have said apartment to make it clear I meant the holiday complex. So rather than just saying the children were left alone I mean the parents were not only out of earshot but quite a distance away considering the amount of obstacles between them and the apartment.

Huge big difference from being on the balcony or within sight of the apartment. It isn't going to be long before the hyped up media start focussing on this.

Sorry, not making much sense, have just sent in my final assessment to the OU and am literally shaking with nerves!

You can offend without being defamtory. SOme of the writing here has been careless. Just suppose you or someone close had somehow made this mistakes. WOuld you have appreciated this thread? And whether the McCanns read it or not is irrelavant in terms of the lack of care shown.

Perhaps it makes people feel better to blame the parents as then they can be comforted with the fact that it will never happen to them.

These parents did not wilfully neglect those children in a manner likely to cause injury or ill-health. They did not know there was anyone planning to abduct their (or any other) child. Had they known this, and the authorities could prove that they knew, or should have known about this possibility, and still left the children, then they could be prosecuted.

They are guilty of nothing, the person who took the child is the guilty one.

'Just suppose you or someone close had somehow made this mistakes. WOuld you have appreciated this thread? '

So we're supposed to stop expressing opinions in order to avoid anyone feeling offended?

Because that is what I have a problem with, tbh. And I'm stepping out here as someone who has made an utter cock up of pretty much my entire adult life, I'll be the first to admit it and if anyone called me on it I'd be furious if any of my family got defensive about it.

It's about the reaction of people here regarding any opinion which calls the McCanns' behaviour into question - with abuse, with a lynchmob mentality, with comments that this poster must be insensitive and horrible.

That I have a big problem with, because I've seen how far that goes.

And it isn't good.

I used baby monitoring in a hotel once when ds1 was 5 months old. We arrived back at our room after a long diinner and leisurely post dinner drink to find him absolutely screaming the place down. He had obviously been screaming for a long time. The hotel was huge. Reception hadn't bothered to tell us, I suspect someone had turned the listening service off as he was howling, and god knows how they missed him. We would never leave ds1 alone in a hotel room serviced by a listening service now (severely autistic 8 year old, god knows what he would get up to) listening service or not. My trust in them died that day (expensive hotel, supposedly family friendly). Had I not had that experience I probably would have merrily left ds2 and ds3, but it was awful.

I think Quatroccento has expressed him/herself with exemplary courtesy and good taste throughout. Many others, on both sides of the argument, have not.

dolally
I agree.
Also how can a parent even contemplate what happened as a possible risk! As parents they made a choice and they have to live with it, FGS.

Blu

I have scrolled down to try to find what I said - unlike me to be bitchy - flatly refuse to believe that I swore - but whatever I said I apologise.

I did get loads of flak for allegedly blackening the McCanns name (with paint? what? the world is going to refuse to go to their surgeries because a mumsnetter opined that the mccanns had broken UK laws on childcare?)

Thank you neutronstar :0

And thank you Ladymuck for putting us right about Mark Warner

dolally ? would you say the same should it turn out that the child was not abducted but wandered off from an unsecured room to find her parents and found something very different though?
I am yet to see any proof that she was abducted ? just mere speculation to this fact because she hasn?t been found dead in the street thus far.

expatinscotland: you can ofcourse express your opinions, but many people will find it rude given the family's current pridicamemt. As I mentioned, I may have a view about why my friend died of lung cancer but would it be good manners to discuss at friend's funeral? I was taught that I should keep that opinion under wraps atleast until family come to terms with loss. Is it not the kind thing to do?

If I need to discuss child saftey on holidays, I would be careful to discuss it in general terms rather than the specifics of the McCann case under a thread like this. Is that really asking too much. Even My friends/associates who have a problem with people of my type are genreally sensitive about how they discuss the issue with me and I appreciate their good manners even if I have differnet views. I do think there is a sensitive way to treat people who are suffering. But your right to free speech obviously allows you to be rude if you want to

Not read the whole thread but most of you who have said you wouldn't in a million years have done what they did, have said so with courtesy and compassion, except of course the OP who was, as we all see, technically incorrect.

I reckon the pain M's parents are going through now is worse than anything any police force could do to them, or indeed anything that any MN commenter could say.

I live in Algarve and work in the tourism industry and I am proud to say that the police and the media here have shown enormous compassion for this devastated couple.

There are so many people concerned with the pain that Madeleine's parents are going through. What about the little girl herself?

I expressed this sentiment earlier twoifbysea, it didnt go down well...

I like to holiday 'with' my children and would not even contemplate going out without them on our family holiday. Different folk different strokes i suppose. But this time if was with terrible consequences.

In what way was the opening poster technically incorrect?

I am just checking to see if there is a legal point at issue.

Toughie - I am not "treating" the McCanns - either with or without sensitivity. I am in point of fact discussing the issue with you. There's a difference, isn't there?

it is the suffering of tve girl and her family that is driving the public's concern. Ridiculous to suggest anything else, isn't it?