In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

But dolally - what if the child was not abducted? What if she did simply wander out?

Does that make the McCann's any less responsible than the grandmother who happened to be babysitting on the night the little girl in Merseyside was savaged by her uncle's dog?

There cannot be one law for them and another for the rest of us.

twoifbysea - the restuarant was in view of the apartment though.

gess which hotel was it?

.

I am scared for little Madeleine - scared that she may be dead. I think that's why people talk about the parent's pain and not Maddy's. I was actually scared to write that down.

To rewind a few posts - it's not likely that she did just wake up and wander off - surely the sniffer dogs would have found her by now if she had?

Quattrocento: but this is an open medium so I would have hoped that you would have spared the family. Not impossible for a relative or friend to be on MN is it? Even that small possibility warrants care?

The OP is technically incorrect because they weren't 'down the road' - and no-one can say for certain, given the grey area of the children's act you quote, and the discretion of the police anyway, whether they would have been arrested or not.

SArah Payne's parents were not, thank heavens and of course, arrested because thier children were in a field, out of sight because of high crops, and further away than the McCann's children were from them. The Chapmans and Wells were not arrested, (of course, and thank heavens) because thier daughters were gone all afternoon and the parents - enoying a family barbecue - did not know where they had gone to. So an assertion like 'they would have been arrested' is merely sensationalist.

People are entitled to thier opinion and view - but can we be accurate about what is calm stating of facts and where value judgements skew those, please?

Message withdrawn

The police have now stated that they have excluded all other possibilities and are certain they are dealing with an abduction. I don't know what has led them to believe that because of the justice secrecy law.

To be honest I'm not sure why I assume that the parents had protected their kids against other possibilities, I've heard various stories about whether the door was actually ajar/shut/locked, ...but in any case the abductor got in through the shutters on the other side didn't he/she?

In legal terms, as far as I understand, if something else has happened to the child, it would depend exactly what it was. I.E you cannot prosecute the parents just for leaving the kids alone, only for omitting to protect them from whatever it was that subsequently happened and was foreseeable... if you see what I mean.

If you want to say I'm rude for writing that I think the McCanns were in the wrong then go ahead, ToughDaddy.

I never had a sheltered life, and now I'm actually quite thankful for that.

I grew up in places where the gap between rich and poor was so huge, kidnapping for ransom was - and still is, sadly - commonplace.

Then I went on to take oral depositions for refugees applying for asylum because I had knowledge of some languages to help with that.

So it would never have occurred to me to behave in such a way.

So now I'm smug and holier than thou and rude and insensitive according to a website. Okay. I'm fine with that.

'Perhaps it makes people feel better to blame the parents as then they can be comforted with the fact that it will never happen to them. '

How does expressing an opinion tie in with that?

Because of the way it was phrased, I suppose?

Toughie - yes I understand that the family might feel blamed - and that is the logical consequence of some of our discussions - but we have kept the discussion legal and mostly civilised. No-one has pilloried the parents and we have tried to be respectful.

The only way we could have done more to be sensitive is not to discuss it at all. Whilst that was the preferred option of some people, I had a genuine interest in (particularly) the childcare point, and it was interesting to discuss it with you all.

nappyaddict, one of the reporters, earlier on in the search showed the walk from the apartment to the restaurant, as he stood outside the apartment there was a huge hedge blocking any view of the restaurant (which he had to point at as it couldn't be seen.) To get to the apartment there were bushes and a wall in the way. The road was right beside the apartment, you could walk out of the door and no one would ever know you had left.

Not easy access, not within view unless you had binoculars that could see through hedges.

That is where my risk assessment alarm would have been going off. As I keep saying, not so much for abduction but for the many other dangers that could happen, such as fire etc. etc. You wouldn't have seen that from the restaurant and we all know that fire can spread as quick as a child can slip out from a holiday apartment.

I think the difference in the case of the grandmother babysitting is that the dog is on the dangerous dogs list and therefore it was foreseeable that it might attack somebody, and measures could have been taken which would have excluded that possibility totally.

The parents' risk assessment in M's case, presumably took in all the possibilities they they could reasonably foresee. Presumably they thought by visiting the apartment every 20 minutes they could deal with those.

Quattrocento, you speak sense in that last post.

Aye, Two. That is an important difference.

When dts1 was 2 he had a spell of night frights, screaming although he wasn't really awake. These came on very suddenly, and disappeared just as quickly.

I wouldn't like to think of any child going through what dts1 did alone, in a strange place and for however long it took between checks.

Personally I agree with you 2.

There are so many risks with toddlers. The risk of night frights, the risk of being ill (choking and vomiting) the risk of waking up and falling/hurting herself in the apartment, the risk of wandering off (which is what the parents initially thought had happened etc.

The risk of abduction is the least likely statistically. Desperately unlucky.

The fact that the children were out of sight and out of earshot particularly worries me. It also worries me that apparently the resort actively encourage parents to leave their children in this way.

DD1 has delays, as I wrote before, and has SN, so even though she is only a month younger than Madeline McCann, I'm not sure what another 4-year-old is like. She is my first child, and I've not been able to go to nursery with her or playgroups because I have always had to work full time so we can live - my husband has dyspraxia and many learning disabilities, too.

But even my husband, who can barely read or write, who grew up very poor without teh advantage of much beyond basic education, finds the idea of leaving such young children alone nonsensical.

dolally - The problem is it isn't at all clear that the parents did check the children every 20 mins, and they left them in another building some distance away and out of direct sight.

No matter how it's dressed up to look, it is neither advisable nor legal to leave such tiny children (babies really) alone for any period of time. The fact is, there was no listening service.

If the child got out (and it's logical that she did - the doors were unlocked), it was as a direct result of her parents' negligence. Now I'm not denying that they must be devastated and wracked with guilt. I'm just pointing out that so must the grandmother in Merseyside. And I see little difference in the two cases (even if someone did break in and steal the child - which I find unlikely).

I asked a direct question before but no one would answer, so I'll direct this at you. If it is found that this child simply got out of the building and wondered off, how will you feel about monies you contributed going towards funding the legal fees of the parents?

Did anyone say they'd never cocked up, Twirly?

No.

Wanna talk fuck ups?

Well, hell, better sit down, because my list is a mile long.

But somehow it's wrong for others to say they (the McCanns) duffed it up so big time someone else paid for it?

That's somehow a low blow, insensitive, etc.?

Well, it's what a lot of people think.

It's an opinion. And so long as it's not abusive, then it's allowed here.

bobby, no, it's not clear how often the parents checked on the kids, and we'll probably never know. All we can do is speculate wildly like everyone else in Europe at the moment!

Of course the parents made a wrong decision but I don't think they should be arrested (as in OP) and I also think that I could have made a similar misjudgement, or could in the future. These things happen and sometimes you just kick yourself for being so stupid, other times you might pay for your mistake for the rest of your life.

Re the find Madeleine fund, I understood it was for finding her. Nothing else. the Algarve Tourism board is paying for the family's accommodation for as long as they wish to stay there.

Having had a brief review of this very long thread it seems the initial opinions have changed. I for one am upset at the amount of negative coverage this story is getting in foreign press. Along the lines that UK parents are horrified at anyone criticisng the McCanns and their parenting skills. I'm upset that the rest of the world think that we all believe that these parents behaviour was acceptable. To me, a single mother of a child younger than Madeleine, it is not. Not in any circumstances. End of story.

I would never leave my child alone and go out for dinner even if the restaurant was in view of his room (which here it was not). It has not been widely reported that there is criticism of the McCanns parenting behaviour here in the UK. Almost as if we aren't allowed to mention their complete failure to ensure their child was safe. When I have been abroad on holiday I can say that I would have noticed someone trying to abduct my child as I would have been in the same room, not out for dinner with my 'adult' friends.

Why are we so sympathetic to the McCanns? Is it because seemingly a large number of parents would do the same or is it their social standing - doctors, members of a respected profession? Does having a 'professional' career make you a better parent? If the McCanns didn't want to use the MW babysitting facilities then why didn't they either have dinner with their children or pay for their nanny or the grandparents to come on holiday too. It has been widely reported that the McCanns were on holiday with fellow doctors who also had children younger than Madeleine. Did they all leave their children alone whilst they went out for dinner?

The most awful thing about this whole sorry event is there is only one person truly suffering and she is completely innocent - poor Madeleine. I hope she is found safe and well but the longer this sorry event goes on without news the less chance for a positive outcome.

oh god.

i totally get it expat. i do.

but really. we do all fuck up.

we really really do.

and what on earth is the point. their lives are living hell. they are not going to find madeleine alive (imo) and it is a total abhorrent world that they inhabit forevermore.

what is the point of putting the boot in.

i know i do things that could put ds at risk. perhaps not of kidnapping but maybe of being injured/burnt/or actually maybe even snatched (he has been out of eyeshot and that is all it takes isn't it?)

anger at impotence. anger at the torture of what that little girl may be going through/might have gone through/will go through. anger at a world that is fucked. yes.

this thread is like the ones that look for her. it is about impotence. it is about impotence.