In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

Personally I think belgianbun and lemonstartree are both absolutely spot on.

Oh for fucks sake!
Hardly the bloody time to take apart the parents piece by piece when they are going bananas trying to find their little girl!
Now go and play nicely somewhere else and fuck off!!!

I have not been abusive to anyone. Nor have I blackened the McCann's name. I am trying to engage in a debate.

By the way, Lemon, the McCanns did not pop downstairs. They popped over 100 meters away. Around a corner. Beyond the pool. And totally out of earshot.

Nor, incidentally, have I sworn at anyone, or played a holier than thou card.

If now is not the time to engage in a childcare debate, when is?

Message withdrawn

quattro , if you work in Child Protection then I'm sure you would acknowledge that in the scheme of things this does not constitute "neglect" or "abandonment", as cleaninglady has suggested already . Had this situation not had such a sinister consequences, yes there mght be a heated debate about such cirucmstances on MN (as there have been over other related situations in the past) but they would not have been thus vilified.

I think the point being missed is the fact that the McCanns were on holiday. How many of us have done something we wouldn't do at home when we are on holiday?

I'm positive they wouldn't have dreamt of leaving their children and going to the pub when they were at home.

However, here you are on holiday at a MW resort which positively encourages parents to feed the children a high tea and out them to bed so that all the adults on the resort can have their evenings with a later dinner. This was the ethos and culture of the resort and what all the other parents and children were doing.

Our judgement and risk assessment of situations changes depending on the environment so I honestly believe it was the envionment that led to the misjudgement the McCanns made.

I will be interested to know how MW will address the issues this cased has raised with regards to their baby listening service which in effect would have been less effective than the McCanns actually going into the room, and indeed the idea of parents leaving the children for their evening meal.

What's the debate, though, Quattro? What IS the debate????? Should you ever leave you child alone EVER, AT ALL? Surely it is each individual parent's judgement call to a large extent?
I personally feel fine about letting my 2 yr old play for a few minutes unattended in my garden - other parents wouldn't. My nextdoor neighbour lets her 7 and 10 yr old sons play out in the street - I wouldn't feel comfortable about that. Some primary school age children travel to school by bus alone. Other secondary school age kids are still being ferried by their parents back and forth. There are so many grey areas, and the McGanns stepped right into one of them. Does that make them bad parents? Or inferior to you or LostPuppy or the parents who never take their eye off their child for a second? I don't think so. I don't think so at all.

Good point, Connie.

Well why on earth should anyone be bullied, sworn at and villified for entering into a discussion?

I agree that this shows Mumsnet at its worst. Posters on a discussion thread should not be bullied.

I have been completely factual, copied and pasted the law, outlined the legal position, and asked Mumsnetters to consider a hypothetical position.

None of this in any way means that I do not want Madeleine found. I know that the McCanns are bitterly rueing the day. I wish they didn't have to go through this.

But I do think the "home alone" point needs discussing - that is what this strand is about - and I don't think I should be bullied by fellow mums for doing so.

CD - I agree that the baby listening service that many people are so happy to use and trust would not have prevented this type of abduction, nor would it prevent accidents occuring. I don't think the McCanns necessarily did anything worse really than what such a service would have done - and yes I know there wasn't one at this particular resort. If this had occured whilst a listenong service was used, would everyone be still be blaming the parents as much?

Just curious. As I have said already, I personally wouldn't have done this and I also would not usea baby listening service. But I am curious as to whether people really think a baby lisening sevrice would be any better?

lulumama used the F-word

Loveangel - it's the McCanns not McGanns.

Actually, I have no problems with a debate.

I don't know whether I would have done this. I've never been in the position to make have to decide. I know I do do things which others would find unacceptable.

What I don't like is the tone of some of the posts. You can debate the ideas without vilifying the people involved in this sad case. (In the OP "But her "parents" are a disgrace" - I find the quotation marks especially offensive).

And from a different poster "I know for a fact that I would never put my DD in that situation". I just think - well bully for you..

Those kind o contributions are not debate.

Belgian bun

You are confusing me with the original poster. I have not referred to parents in inverted commas.

You are being unfair and abusive. You really should not seek to stifle debate. If you can't win the argument without resorting to abuse, then maybe your argument is not defensible?

Would you leave your children home alone?

"However, here you are on holiday at a MW resort which positively encourages parents to feed the children a high tea and out them to bed so that all the adults on the resort can have their evenings with a later dinner. This was the ethos and culture of the resort and what all the other parents and children were doing".

I have come across this as well; one child/family resort type website I looked at stated that children over the age of 12 are welcomed in the evenings. No mention of those children who are under that age.

I don't think Mr and Mrs McCann would have dreamt of leaving their children alone at home either; their complacency abroad has cost them very dear.

I sincerely hope that their daughter is returned but as time passes my personal hope of a happy outcome diminishes. It goes to stand as well she may never be found.

I can only speak for myself and say, I am happy to keep it to debate rather than abuse and mud slinging (although I cannot promise I won't resort to regular usage of the lowest form of wit, or use strong language now and then - I'm a living, breathing human being not a slick-mouthed lawyer type, after all...)

Quattro - I do think that if you wade into this debate, no matter how honourable your intentions are, you're going to have to be prepared for strong feelings and lost tempers. It'd be naive to expect anything less.

hulababy, imho, a baby listening service would not have prevented this abduction.
i no longer use baby listening since ds moved out of his cot and could move around. now we get a baby sitter, but that is because i worry he could get out of the room or hurt himself, not because i fear paedophiles. i have in the past used baby listening provided there has been a smoke alarm in the room.

when one considers that a child was recently abducted from her own home when her parents were present in the house, it's not guaranteed that a baby-sitter or even the presence of the parents themselves would have prevented this dreadful incident.

The vitriol and holier than thou attitudes on here are a bit much tbh. We all do things that we regret. And luckily for most of us the consequences are fairly minor.
I'm quite sure that there is nothing on this thread that the McCann's haven't been saying to themselves since Madeleine was taken. They have to live with this forever, whether or not Madeleine is returned safely. Show a bit of compassion, please.

Thanks for the correction, bobsmum.

YeahBut - in my own long winded way iIhave been trying to make this point for nigh on the past hour and a half dammit, where has the time gone?

If the McCanns had been using a baby listening service would the door of the apartment been locked? (genuine question - have never used such a service)

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