In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

Ok - so this is a discussion about parental responsibility and not an attack on the McGanns? Well, that's something slightly different to what I think the OP intended, and to what I (and others) originally got upset about.

Love Angel - the choice isn't between finding Madeleine and discussing the leaving of children. I can't do the first. It's out of my power. And if anyone posting on mumsnet seriously thought that they could, I wouldn't take them seriously. And no-one is congratulating themselves for never leaving their children for 30 seconds. As I see it, people are trying to discuss what they find acceptable in terms of risk. And Quattrocentro has reminded us of the legal position.

not what the title suggested at all

Was the door left unlocked?

Would it be different if it had been locked?

In the Times they had a lawyer giving her opinion on a number of scenarios, and I think she said it would be acceptable. Pretty sure it was based on a locked door though.

Should add that all I can think is 'there but for the grace of God...'

Saying "well, it would never happen to me" seems, well, distasteful really.

Can't remember who asked for the law but this is Section 5 of the Act. Incidentally, reading this strand, there have been lots of people arguing "not now" or "bad taste" but only one contributor who has argued that what the McCanns did was reasonable.

You have all probably proved that what the McCanns did was "unreasonable" within the meaning of the act. I would not place children with anyone who admitted to leaving them unsupervised and without adult attendance in the house at night.

(b) wilfully or unreasonably does, or causes the child or young person to do, any act which endangers or is likely to endanger the safety of the child or young person or which causes or is likely to cause the child or young person ?

(i) any unnecessary physical pain, suffering or injury;

(ii) any emotional injury; or

(iii) any injury to his health or development; or

(c) wilfully or unreasonably neglects, abandons or exposes the child or young person with full intention of abandoning the child or young person or in circumstances that are likely to endanger the safety of the child or young person or to cause the child or young person ?

(i) any unnecessary physical pain, suffering or injury;

(ii) any emotional injury; or

(iii) any injury to his health or development.

Ooh...I dunno...I think there has been a fair amlount of self congratulation going on on this thread!

...and perhaps Quattro should inform the police of this flagrant disregard of the law that has taken place, and the McGanns should be arrested?

Sarcasm aside NFK, I am genuinely NOT against debating the matter. I just don;t think people genuinely do seem to be debating it...or am I missing something?

beckybrastraps, that phrase has been running through my mind since this happened...

Message withdrawn

I don't think anyone has said "it would never happen to me though" have they? lots of people have said "I would never leave my children" but that's different than saying it would never happen to me.

The legal opinion on the AlphaMummy site was from a genuine legal expert in the field but they (a) seem to have bent her backwards and (b) based the opinion on a locked door and we now know that the door was unlocked. That is cut and pasted here:

Scenario 4:You go out for dinner in a hotel complex on holiday abroad, leaving a child aged 3 and twins aged 18 months in a locked room. You return to check on them every half hour.

If the parents have taken all the risks into account and decided that it is safe to leave the children, this would probably be reasonable. If the children were awake or a bit older and able to wander around, or potentially even to open the door to an intruder, perhaps not. But asleep, with the door locked and people constantly checking up on them, it is likely to be reasonable.

You should be checking on them very regularly. I don?t think it?s any less safe in Continental Europe than it is here. Leaving children alone in this manner is not desirable, but parents have to balance the demands of life and will probably have to consider such issues regularly.

A parent needs to ensure that children are safe if they are left alone. Leaving them for a short while, asleep, in a locked room with regular checks is acceptable. Leaving them for two hours, or with unlocked doors, is not.

Perhaps aimsmum - but self congratulation is still self congratulation. And the people who bang on about bf vs ff are just as annoying as the OP.

I think those who might have supported what they did or have said they do/have done the same have spent themselves at least once on previous discussions and frankly can't be bothered to get involved in one again. This thread is not balanced as a result but don't take that as a benchmark of opinion.

Clearly none of you 'I would never ever leave my children for a nanosecond' have ever been on a MW holiday. The whole PURPOSE of this kind of holiday is that, having spent the day with your kids at the pool/beach you can leave them SAFELY in their room and pop downstairs to the RESORT restaurant and have a bite to eat with uyour husband.

The McCanns were doing what 90% of other people in that and every other MW resort do every single day. My dh and I have done so several times. The children are in our HOTEL FFS they are, or should be, safe. ( and all mw pools ARE fenced and very well guarded. Madeleine was not safe because a criminal abducted her.

To judge and pontificate is ill-informed and frankly sanctimonious. Every single parent in the world has lost sight of their child in a shop or park or somewhere. The brutal fact is that it COULD have happened to anyone - it only takes a split second to abduct a child.

the 'holier than thou' attitude whilst these loving parents are going through hell is one of the most unattractive frankly disgusting things I have ever read.

Judge not that ye be not judged - and I hope none of you ever has cause to regret any decsion you ever make, and that if you do you meet with more compassion than you have seen fit to meet out.

Lizs - you're probably right, but it is probably because of the shouting down on other threads that it has all come to light on this one.

On that note, I'm leaving work now so cannot continue to rabbit on about freedom of speech.

Didn't realise that they'd left the door unlocked

Don't be silly! Of course I am not going to call the police. Unfortunately they are already aware of the situation.

Okay, here's a question for you all. This is a genuine question, and not in any sense intended to be judgemental.

Your neighbours three doors down routinely go to the pub every night, leaving three small children in the house, asleep, but going home every so often to check on them.

How would you feel? Would you feel that you just had to call social services? Or would you leave well alone and not interfere or be judgemental?

In child protection work, sometimes you have to interfere. This is for the sake of the children. Not because anyone wants to.

Belgianbun - of course you can do it and still be a loving parent. Nobody has suggested that you can't.

What is being discussed is whether it's right to do it. And I really do think this debate is about whether such a course of action is right or wrong. Not just whether it's acceptable. Not just different strokes for different folks.

Would it not be simpler and more sensible when an OP is posted that people find so offensive, that everyone simply leaves it alone?

Open the thread, click the exclamation mark if you so wish and then go away again.

Then, instead or arguments still going on nearly 3 hours after the OP, the thread would simply vanish into oblivion.

Just an idea.

Belgian, don't be abusive, this is not right.

I am not hypothesising that these are the McCanns. Nor did I say that my hypothetical couple were drinking. I said they had gone to the pub. They might be drinking mineral water and eating a green salad. Or they might be downing 10 pints and joining in the Karaoke. I don't know and to be honest with you what they are doing in the pub is irrelevant. What I want to know is what you would do.

so does it make a difference then if you leave them to go out drinking as opposed to going for a meal? And if so why? Surely the question is whether you should leave them, not what it's acceptable to do once you've left them.