Alfie Evans 7

[StayingAtTamaras]

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There’s no point trying to correct them or engage with them en masse is there? They’re emotional and complicated group dynamics are at play.

I think a lot of it is sympathy between people who feel disenfranchised and frightened. Insulting them only confirms their worldview (that they’re despised and voiceless).

This isn’t difficult stuff to understand.

Not many people respond well to strangers on the internet trying to 'educate' them. It's very hard not to come across as condescending and patronising when trying to educate people you don't know when they didn't ask for it.

I think it's a shame this thread has moved from discussing Alfie's rights to balloon releases etc. Balloon releases are not great but are legal. It just seems like another reason to latch onto the hate towards people involved. As with comments on the funeral. Unfortunately Alfie isn't with us any more so the funeral is for his parents and family so let them have whatever gives them most comfort at this horrible time without sniping.

Completely agree Battleaxe. I've seen people arguing for these threads to remain because it's important to have discussion about Alfie's case but now it just seems to be sneering and bitching.
Perhaps it would be more constructive to explore why it is often those with poor educational or social status that distrust authority. Could it be because for generations they have been let down and disenfranchised. Could it be that this powerlessness is why they empathise so much with parents who have lost all power in being able to keep their child alive.
I think it is also important to point out that although our NHS is amazing and we are very lucky to have socialised healthcare, it has not been free from blunders, cover ups and scandals. In relation to Alder Hey, people are going to have the organ scandal on their mind. They are going to remember that parents had to bury their babies without organs and then later resume the bodies and go through the trauma of burying their child again. They are going to remember that although there was a hospital full of amazing NHS staff some Dr's were keeping the thymus glands from live babies during heart surgery and storing people's foetuses in jars after they had lost babies.
The ethical issues surrounding this case are hugely complex but a lot of people simply see two parents being denied the chance to seek alternative medical care/diagnosis and being forced to kill their baby by a hospital that has history for unethical research experimentation on young children.
I don't agree with the behaviour and views of some in Alfie's Army but I do understand why those views are there.
I'm not sure how mocking their intelligence is going to help matters really, it just makes the people doing it look like snobs who are using a the tragedy of s dead child to have a good old bitch.

The people on the page i am on have been nothing but polite. It has been a request off several people to consider an alternative to balloons.

It’s a fair few people too, not one or two. These request have been met with rudeness, aggression, denial of the facts, accusations... like being back in the playground where you can’t reason with bullies, they just laugh and point until you go away.

Most people aren’t even arguing, just respectfully asking and leaving them to sneer. But then someone else asks and they start again.

Apparently they love and miss alfie and it’s about their grief, so they can do what they like. The fact that a significant number of local people don’t think this is an appropriate tribute doesn’t matter.

Nobody has called them names or even been remotely mean. But they can’t say that balloons aren’t harmful, and use their knowledge of tree biology to argue their case!

And I know people think the balloons are incidental. But again it shows the unwillingness to listen to facts and to push their own agenda- and social media gives them that power because they can just delete anything they don’t want to hear, creating an affirmative bubble.

It worries me the amount of people signing the petitions for alfie/charlies law and that those people honestly believe this was state-sanctioned murder.

I don’t want a world where those who shout loudest get their own way.

The following was a response from an army member to someone suggesting the balloons were a bad idea:

'as Alfies army we don't care about the fucking wildlife we will do whatever it takes to show we care about Alfie and if that means a few animals or people have to die then so be it. RIP Alfie'

Is being disenfranchised and frightened sufficient excuse to write something so shocking?

Pointless trying to "educate" a lot of the army. Unless you totally agree with the rubbish they spout you get abuse, not just on the page, but private messages too.

It's mainly pretty vile abuse too,. They also make rude comments about your profile picture - mine is my dog and so not only did I get accused of hiding behind a picture of a dog, I also got charming messages saying they hope my dog dies so I can see what sadness is. If they could look at a poster's profile page (they couldn't look at mine) they would then make offensive posts about that.

They think that shows how much compassion they have for a child!

Flyingbird, I just struggle to bite my tongue sometimes :) I'm not trying to stick the boot in to the hospital. Just making the point that , a scandal of that magnitude shocked people to the core and is bound to stick in people's minds and hearts, even if it was 20 years ago. Therefore, when you add to this, an existing distrust of authority and the simplistic view that Alfie is being denied alternative treatment/diagnosis and instead being made to die, then the inevitable outcome is going to be suspicion, anger and allegations towards the hospital. I am not saying this is right but rather trying to offer an insight into why some people on Alfie's Army think and behave the way they have, rather than merely dismissing them as an uneducated, trouble-making mob.

I think that there were also comments about they didn't care about the other fucking children either when they were queried about storming the hospital and noisy protests. :(

Sadly, while the AH organ scandal might have a small part to play in this, I think it is more the mob mentality that has taken over. I don't think that these people are frightened, most of them probably weren't even born when the organ scandal took place, and this is a brand new hospital in a new location with centres of excellence that we are lucky to have. A doctor who wrote a letter explaining his views on the situation is still receiving death threats.

Many hospitals are now reviewing their security, meaning that they will seem even less welcoming for children and parents, parents are refusing vaccinations through the fear that that is what damaged Alfie, it is as though retribution for the loss of a child that was inevitable anyway is the only thing they want at the cost of everything and anyone else. Sad times indeed.

Noeuf* and Derxa*, I don't understand why you need to come on the thread and derail it by bickering with people needlessly. This isn't the place for it. If you think what someone has said breaks the talk guidelines then report it but fgs all a pp did was ask if funerals for children were free! Leave it out.

@SilverySurfer wow that is shocking!

They've put on their Instagram page that family has requested the group ' fall silent' for now

Thank god for that!!

silvery that is so shocking

Let's hope they do then runmummy!

I don’t think they will.

It’s not about alfie. Or any other child. It’s about what they want, their “grief” and their right to express it.

None of this was ever about what was best for alfie.

'as Alfies army we don't care about the fucking wildlife we will do whatever it takes to show we care about Alfie and if that means a few animals or people have to die then so be it. RIP Alfie'

Is being disenfranchised and frightened sufficient excuse to write something so shocking?

That's exactly the point, isn't it? We seem to have entered a time when some consider "how they feel" can excuse absolutely anything, and to my mind it simply doesn't

I'd hope nobody denies the struggles some experience, but neither is being "disenfranchised" necessarily permanent. It would take too long to list the money spent and the countless initiatives which have failed through lack of engagement, and while some no doubt folded through being badly drawn in the first place, there comes a point where we surely have to accept that some simply don't want to move ahead

Thinking about the army and their reactions makes me wonder where it all came from. I've never known anything like it and I can't help wondering if it goes back to the death of Princess Diana.

Before then behaviour like this would have been inconceivable. The completely OTT hysterical outpourings of grief for Diana appeared to open the floodgates and some people now seem to think unless they are overtly showing extreme grief and sympathy that it's not enough. They are prepared to break the law and incite hatred and violence to prove how sad they are over the death of a child none of them knew.

It's probably far too late to put the cork back in the bottle and depressingly I can see this sort of thing happening with increased regularity in the future.

I very much hope the laws are not changed and the child is always the priority, not the wishes of the parents.

I've seen people arguing for these threads to remain because it's important to have discussion about Alfie's case but now it just seems to be sneering and bitching.

As I'm sure you're well aware, Sozzler, that's an incredibly selective comment. It takes very little time to look upthread and see that it's not true.

I think it is also important to point out that although our NHS is amazing and we are very lucky to have socialised healthcare, it has not been free from blunders, cover ups and scandals. In relation to Alder Hey, people are going to have the organ scandal on their mind.

That was 25 years ago, FFS. Whereas, for instance, Bambino Gesu's own hygiene scandal only came out a year ago. AH's current CQC rating is good/outstanding.

The ethical issues surrounding this case are hugely complex but a lot of people simply see two parents being denied the chance to seek alternative medical care/diagnosis and being forced to kill their baby by a hospital that has history for unethical research experimentation on young children.

Which is a very self-selected version of the facts. Others see a hospital that kept a very sick child alive against the odds for 18 months but eventually, after taking several further opinions (including from doctors nominated by the parents) came to the view that it was not in his interests to prolong his suffering when he was only being kept alive by the ventilator. And had that view endorsed by the courts after the parents had been given every chance to present evidence and arguments challenging it.

The problem with a lot of the views of those attacking AH is that they are based on an inflammatory presentation of untrue facts. I can't count the number of times I've seen people who, when presented with the facts, simply come up with variants of "Well, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it". But equally I have come across so many people, including the supposedly poor and disenfranchised, who have managed to do minimal research and don't support the parents on this one, no matter how much they sympathise with them.

You may well be right about it starting with Princess Diana, plus 24 hour tv followed by social media.

Article about the involvement of Christine Broesamle and pro-life groups here. Her involvement in trying to sneak people into the hospital under cover is shocking.

According to Michael Mylonas, she also sabotaged attempts at mediation last year by spending to long arguing with the parents' advisers that there wasn't enough time. I suspect she was heavily involved in the parents ditching their legal aid lawyers.

Gnu that is so shocking and worrying. All these different agendas and the desperate parents' understandably clinging on to any hope. It is disgraceful that they have been able to infiltrate our legal and medical systems - things are going to have to change aren't they and quickly before this type of case becomes the norm. So depressing. What can be done?

Gnothergnu, the points you have raised with my comment seem irrelevant to me. My comment wasn't saying this is how I or everyone else thinks, it was demonstrating where some of the views over in Alfie's Army may stem from.

Thanks for the link to the article GnotherGnu I very much hope that Broesamle and other religious nutters like her are removed from the country. They contribute nothing positive - quite the reverse.

It is scary how many have gone along with the story of the hospital are corrupt and something will come out eventually talk. Anyone speaking sense has been shot down even when shown evidence. Like someone on twitter said it is a case of 'I want to see evidence... Oh I don't want to read the evidence!'

Sozzler, I was pointing out that equally there is a substantial body of opinion, including amongst the poor and disenchanted, that manages to be full informed and therefore to come to different conclusions.