Is there a thread about the poisoning of Skripal? [title edited by MNHQ]

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I've not seen a thread about it at all, but surely there must be?

What loopy conspiracy theorists? All I've heard is legitimate conjecture about how the stuff got into our city and perfectly rational informed debate about the current political/diplomatic situation and the murky world of intelligence.

Florist
I haven’t worked for the Health Protection Agency but I have dealings with them, most notably over H1N1 vaccines and infection control issues.
They are the usual mix of competence/incompetence that Gov agencies are and certainly not the infallible saints that you are making out. There are certainly questions to be asked about why it took a week before any health protection measures were mentioned for people who were possibly exposed.
This kind of airy fairy, “ they know more than us”, “Trust our intelligence Service” just doesn’t wash with me. They are politically influenced organisations. During the sexing up of the WMD issue at the time of the Iraq war they deliberately skewed intelligence to support the rush to war. There was allegedly pressure put on Porton Down to unequivocally declare this nerve agent Russian( which they refused to do)
No I’m not content that our best interests are being served here

Also Florist remember that the HPA is now Public Health England with a much wider remit than in used to have ( on less money no doubt). That might explain why it took them so long to get up to speed

Florist you are a politicians dream.

May has been un-funding our military/emergency services inc zero or 1% pay rises, for the last 8 years, she did little about the Litviynko murder when she was home sec.

As a former US ambassador said recently when asked why the different responses, he replied "well, weak leaders seek to look strong"

We live in a democracy and the Government should at least say why they are so sure this attack is linked not only to Russia but specifically to Putin, its an extremely serious allegation.

Much like Brexit, we are all being treated like Mushrooms.

she did little about the Litvynko murder when she was home sec

Exactly jasjas

In fact she refused a enquiry which could have looked at the secret evidence in coming to a conclusion saying that an inquest would be sufficient. This was after pressure from Russian donors according to his widow. I hope we get a proper Gov enquiry into this. I don’t want to see any secret evidence but if a sufficiently independent figure sees the evidence and reports he is satisfied that would be good enough for me.
I do think it’s probably the Russians btw but I don’t have the degree of certainty that our Boris seems to have that Putin ordered it directly.

anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/who-has-got-nuttiest-salisbury.html I've found the conspiracy theories.

The glaring problem with this theory (Boris') is that it relies on the idea that Putin is some kind of idiot with no regard for consequences. Of course Putin is your archetypal strong-man tyrant with a disregard for human rights, but if you've ever actually paid attention to any of his speeches, he's clearly an intelligent man, not an idiot.

Still keeping an open mind here, likely the Russians but a bit of evidence and independent verification plus following protocol would be appreciated.

The trouble with conspiracy theories is, past experience has shown that they're nothing like as loopy as what actually goes on behind closed doors sometimes!

Yes there are definitely questions to be asked about the delay in, and quality of the health advice proffered. Surely I wasn't the only one to be at being told to use baby wipes, given the number of cordons and impounded vehicles in Salisbury and further afield? Just give them a wipe over, why not?

It's my opinion, to which I'm entitled, that the whole cross contamination issue for Salisbury has been minimised.(Until the couple's movements had been established, there was an unavoidable 24 hour delay between the couple being found and the first cordons going up at presumably highly contaminated sites, which had been in continual use).

And of course, as life goes on and it all gradually fades from public consciousness and is no longer subject to the glare of intense publicity, it's an issue that will probably never be fully addressed. It's not a conspiracy theory, to suggest that the authorities won't be at all dismayed by that prospect.

The trouble with conspiracy theories is, past experience has shown that they're nothing like as loopy as what actually goes on behind closed doors sometimes! exactly Donkey

I hear ya Donkey

It's all very MIB isn't it? Just give the plebs 5% of the information, because we can't handle the whole truth, and we need to let those far bigger brains than ours get on with things, and we should just shush and get on with our lives without thinking, and accept (without question) that it's all going to come out in the wash (pun intended), and baby wipes are actually a lot more powerful than we first thought.

I'm fully expecting to have my brain wiped by that flashy thing shortly, so we all forget what happened...

"I'm fully expecting to have my brain wiped by that flashy thing shortly, so we all forget what happened..."

Mine was wiped today, I seem to remember a bright light this morning but it could have been the sun rising. I plan to watch an online documentary now, from 2017, and see what it says and if it can make things a bit more coherent. It lies on our tv's website now, there are interviews in it with Scotland Yard among others. The program is unfortunately quite boring so I won't promise seeing all of it.

I would expect details of the investigation to remain confidential at an early stage.

I note that the French have now stated publicly that they are pursuaded that it is a Russian action. And Corybyn has now adopted the May ultimatum to Russia of 13 March to the extent that the only possibilities are Russian state action or Russia losing control of at least part of its CW capability.

I would definitely want to know what the lessons learned are, in how to manage an event which may or may not be terrorism but which required significant specialst skill from various bodies (reginal police, central police, labs, NHS, military) - did co-ordination actually work properly?

Why do the timelines appear to omit the time the Skripals vivisted the grave? Have I missed something about this? Because that seems to be quite an omission, as there have been appeals for public to come forward with sightings to put together fuller timeline, and any known timings would assist with that.

I am rather left wondering if they do actually know a) where the poisonings occurred and b) how readily it might be spread around by those who have been in contact with it, and also c) what level dose - single or repeated - is required to produce illness or death (as that makes a difference to the importance of b))

I wonder whether they unintentionally left themselves in the firing line with the baby wipes advice. Perhaps they could have given a bit more information about why baby wipes and why they were giving out the warning without giving away anything about the investigation.

Why do the timelines appear to omit the time the Skripals visited the grave? Have I missed something about this?

This is on the BBC News website timeline -

On 4 March, at about 09:15 GMT, Mr Skripal's car was seen in Salisbury in the area of London Road, Churchill Way North and Wilton Road

That would have been the logical route from the London Road cemetery where his wife and son are buried, to his home which is in a road easily accessed from Wilton Road. So it looks like he/they visited the cemetery fairly early on Sunday morning.

Pass me the post-it notes, gluteus

The round up in tne Guardian says police possibly suspect liquid application to the skin, maybe involving the car or clothing.

But surely both Skripals and the DS have been tested and examined, along with all their clothing? If it had been put in or on clothing, or on the car door handle, they would have found high concentrations in the relevant places?

Has anyone seen this on Twitter?
I read it as meaning that none of the members of the public checked showed signs of nerve agent poisoning, but it's being jumped on as proof that Skripal, Yulia and the policeman were not poisoned by a nerve agent.

WTF Terf

He could just be awful at writing.
It gives the impression of three people with severe poisoning, but none with nerve agent poisoning.

I think, Terf, that you just have to remember that social media is a modern-day battleground.

There are going to be people on social media who are very keen to claim this poisoning isn't real. You can always while away a few hours tracing the 'it's not real'-type tweets back to their sources (who did the person in your timeline pick the story up from? Who did that person pick it up from?). Might be interesting.

Don't let it get to you. It's what modern social media is like these days. Some of it is quite toxic.

Do people really think that we would have so many countries damming Russia over this if they hadn't seen proof that utterly convinced them that this was done by the Russians? If it were an invented story, we wouldn't have called in the OPWC.

"OhYouBadKitten"

Yes the Iraqis were about to unleash chemical mayhem on western europe, Libya was about to massacre its entire population and sending 10s of 1000s of troops to Afghan will make the world a safer place... all reasons given by the world community to justify military action, which turned out to be utter b0ll0cks
the UK cant even disclose the correct evidence to the defence in rape cases and thinks Worboys is a reformed character... so i am sorry but May saying there is overwhelming evidence that Putin ordered this assassination doesnt cut it.
Seems beyond coincidence that Porton Down is 8 miles away from this attack, hugely convenient and UK could identify the nerve agent by name, country and who did it within a few days.

I d just like to see some semblance of real evidence.

BBC;
“UK Prime Minister Theresa May has told MPs that Porton Down - Britain's military research base - identified the substance used on them as being part of a group of military-grade nerve agents known as Novichok developed by the Soviet Union”

Very careful choice of words by May. She is trying to promote certainty that it was the Russians. It probably was but I just am not sure about this.

I can't see how it can be proved that the poisioning was carried out by Russia,I can see that a conclusion being drawn that it was likely .

No chance we'll be given real details .

I would really like to know more about how Detective Sergeant came to be suffering effects ( also like to know how he is of course ) .
Was he at the scene where the Skripals were discovered ? I thought he wasn't but went to the house ?

Except the world community didn't accept the justifications for the Iraq war. Hence the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" jibe from some Americans to the French.

And neither did a lot of us in the UK accept the justifications for the Iraq war. I'm with OYBBK – could see straight through Blair's bluster at the time.

There clearly needs to be further investigation of the attacks in Salisbury, but nothing I've seen from May suggests she's faking a reaction. So for now I'm willing to believe her current assessment that the poisoning is very likely to have come from Russia (one way or another).

Evidence might change that; the Russian establishment calling the UK names... won't.

"Seems beyond coincidence that Porton Down is 8 miles away from this attack, hugely"

That's exactly what some Russian official said this morning.

What is the coincidence? That a resettled Russian spy was poisoned at/near his home? That he chose to live in a part of England where there are numerous military bases (including Porton Down)?

Is journey time from place of manufacture - seeing as you appear to be suggesting that the British assassinated him, or have lost control of a BCW research centre - a key factor? Why does proximity to a postulated place of production actually matter?

Given that part of the whole point of Novichoks is that they are binary and can be safely transported as precursors, I really don't see that proximity to any particular lab is that relevant.

The way I’m reading the official statements it sounds like he was at the scene, but I don’t think they’ve mentioned it specifically. The wording in most of it is a bit ambiguous.