Is there a thread about the poisoning of Skripal? [title edited by MNHQ]

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I've not seen a thread about it at all, but surely there must be?

Oh O.k I must have missed that bit on the news. Thank you Bishop

I am late catching up on this thread but donkeyoil as a local I totally share your concern. I parked twice in that exact bit of Sainsburies car park this week as all we got was reassurance therefore I felt best to behave normally when I’m fact it must have been safer to just say they did not yet know what they are dealing with.
If the car is indeed a big part as is a latest idea being raised, there is only one obvious pay and display machine in that bit before stairs down to the shops etc so contamination extremely easy. By complete chance I had someone in the car who waited but normally I’d always need a ticket there

Maybe I am over anxious as it’s all so close to home and am so sad at what happened to the two poisoned; but I do wish we knew more about degree of contamination too

Just delurking to say this. Basically, we and the Russians are signatories to the Chemical Weapons Convention. Under the Chemical Weapons Convention Article IX Paragraph 2, situations where signatories think that another signatory has violated the convention or where there is any "doubt or concern" should be sorted out between the signatories themselves as far as is possible. A signatory who receives a request to explain any such concerns should respond as "soon as possible" but "no later than 10 days" with information "sufficient to answer the doubt or concern" and an explanation as to how it does so. This is why the Russians think they have 10 days and that any short notice ultimatums are dodgy under International Law.
Now, of course, the CWC wasn't really designed for situations like this but rather creating and stockpiling illegal chemical weapons and, to a certain extent, the policing of the use of such weapons in war zones. Salisbury is definitely not a war zone. Therefore the desire of Russia to stretch out the reply deadline as far as possible looks as bit iffy. How far NATO Article 5 applies here is interesting as well. Article 5 specifies an "armed attack" on NATO territory. Is using a chemical weapon an "armed attack"? I don't know. I do know that noone wants to go to war with Russia, if at all possible.

I read early (Daily Fail) that 38 people have presented with symptoms of contamination but apart from Skirpal, daughter and policeman are ok, one was being observed at home.

And now this other Russian chap found dead by daughter on Monday in Kingston, nr London, who was close friends with another possibly assassinated Russian chap, Beresovsky.

Have been reading up on other possible deaths. Starting to think that double agents get poisoned corrupt ones get strangled or pushed off buildings unless they have a helicopter that is...

thanks unweaved that's a helpful explanation.

BBC mentioned 38 people being treated in hospital then said a snippet about a member of the public who had been admitted.

BBC news at 10 just confirming that it looks like the Russians will ignore the midnight deadline...

That puts Mrs May in a tricky position as she was pretty robust yesterday insisting in the commons that we would take action if they didn't... but what action?

The Russian Foreign Ministry’s spokeswoman has warned Britain against putting ultimatums to Russia, reminding the U.K. about its nuclear arsenal.

Maria Zakharova said in televised remarks Tuesday that “no one can come to parliament and say: ‘I give Russia 24 hours,’” a reference to British Prime Minister Theresa May giving Russia a deadline to explain how a Russia-designed nerve agent could have been used to poison former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter.

So, we really cannot do anything to the Russians then.

Nope, looks like it's a 'they win, we lose' situation.

I saw Trump on the news just now saying that if it is proven, they too will 'join the condemnation of Russia' I'm sure they're really bothered...

Nothing we can do, none of our allies will come to assist us, Trump has no respect for May and we are leaving the EU.... its not a NATO issue.
We did nothing after Litivenko was murdered with the nuclear isotope Polonium.... and Russia (if they are indeed guilty) would have considered the UK actions on this.

Does anyone think Russia gives a flying fcuk if we dont send a team to the W/C tbh that ll just p1ss off the UK public.

Any other actions will just be met with retaliatory action from the Russians.

May as usual was full of hot air, bout time we grew up and realised we are not a serious world power anymore.

I ve been thinking about this today and just catching up on thread. It seems odd to me that they try to assassinate Skripal now. After all they had him in prison for years, they could have bumped him off at any time but must have considered him forgivable enough to pardon and exchange. Do you think he had returned to spying? Was he using old contacts in Russia ( perhaps via his daughter) to get up to date info perhaps on election or referendum funding and fixing? He apparently has some contact with Christopher Steele who brought to light Trumps compromat with Russian prostitutes.

I too am really concerned about this nerve agent which seems to be smeared all over Salisbury. Thank goodness for good old British rain. Did the 38 people who went to hospital go to Zizzi or The Mill? Have the police actually tried to trace families who ate at that table?

Yes it is a NATO issue. Article 5 can be triggered too, we have Germany's support, just waiting to see what French say. Leaving EU does not affect our agreement on security a German spokesman just said on radio 4.
Wouldn't rely on US though as Tillerson just got fired for supporting us. Trump hadn't said a word about supporting us till tillerson announced it before trump did this afternoon.

we really have made ourselves laughable. Russia is 70x bigger than the uk. We're like the annoying little brother now issuing hollow threats.

"He apparently has some contact with Christopher Steele"

Source? (Genuine question, as the accounts I'd seen said said ORBIS denied any link - have they made a fresh statement, or was the account I saw just plain wrong?)

So what can we do?

Turn the other cheek?

It may or may not be a NATO issue (murder isn't, use of CW threatening the population is unprecedented, and NATO will need to take a view)

It is a UN matter (OPCW)

It's not an EU matter.

Tillotson was probably sacked icw N Korea issues (which came to a head over the weekend), though Trump has tagged it to Iran policy.

Meditrina

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/07/poisoned-russian-spy-sergei-skripal-close-consultant-linked/

I think there’s a paywall though.

I suspect about the one thing we could do that would seriously piss off Putin (without exposing the "all-mouth-no-trousers" state of most of the threats we might make) would be pass some sort of UK version of the US's Magnitsky Act. After all, that's why Putin has been sending people to cosy up to Trump's son - he desperately wants the US act repealed. Given how many Russian oligarchs have huge property holdings in London, I can't imagine he'd want a similar act here.

ORBIS has denied any links, ORBIS has only existed since 2009.

Steele had spent more than twenty years in M.I.6, most of it focusing on Russia. For three years, in the nineties, he spied in Moscow under diplomatic cover. Between 2006 and 2009, he ran the service’s Russia desk, at its headquarters, in London. www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier?irgwc=1&utm_medium=10079&utm_campaign=Online%20Tracking%20Link&utm_source=IR Most people are assuming Steele was competent at his job and aware of Skripal.

I could only see the first bit, because if the paywall, but it seems to be saying that an unnamed consultant has claimed to be in touch with both ORBIS and Skripal (dated 7 March)

Other reports (eg The Independent, 8 March) carried a categoric denial from ORBIS that Skripal was connected with the dossier. (thought stoooed short of denying they'd ever had contact with him about anything).

It's possible tha Skripal was selected for this assassination attempt, not because of anything he was doing here. Just because he was a readily identifiable former spy, and the message that 'you are not safe, even overseas' would be effectively sent via such an attack.

consortiumnews.com/2018/03/13/the-strange-case-of-the-russian-spy-poisoning gives a sensible run through of how Steele and Skripal should be linked.

"Most people are assuming Steele was competent at his job and aware of Skripal"

Aware of Skripal is not the same as continuing to run him as a source, though.

What would Skripal actually know, directly, of events in Moscow? Why would a company think he would be worth running as a source? Surely his worthwhile access ended when he was first arrested in Russia. Who in Moscow would want to be in contact with him after that?

*So what can we do?

Turn the other cheek?*

Go after the money seems obvious to me. Trouble is there isn’t really hard evidence. Lots and lots of circumstantial evidence which adds up to big fat guilty in my book.
It’s about who will back the U.K. version of events. Not sure if the US will completely back us. The EU might but the far right parties that pop up are big admirers of Putin.

Go after the money this is what we are aiming to do post Brexit. We need oligarchs to feel safe here, for us to be the tax haven of choice. Whoever did this has tested how strong we are and how well supported we are on the international scene. Not very would appear to be the answer.