'MSbP, Lost Mothers 3'

[kalex]

A new thread for Bunglie, Cheeseball, Spudbrain and Postsue.

With my love and best wishes to them all.

God I sound like a greeting card

Bunglie - on holiday in Suffolk (you're not going to think that's a good enough excuse, are you

M27, of course it is a good excuse.....Just think of us that day for about 30 seconds and that is more than most of the population will do!
Have a wonderful holiday XXXX

I'll be thinking of you all on the 28th, and wishing I could be there....
Hope all goes well........

Take care and be safe all
InnKogNeeToe

Thank you IKNT ? I know you can not be there but I shall be there in spirit for you.
I think that this Rally is important because it is time I did something. It is time I put my words into action and stopped being frightened. Actually I am not being that brave, as I know the AP?s are on holiday! I do not know what to expect, I have a telephone number for the organisers and all the info, but I have never been to a stationary rally. Do we just sit around holding placards, hand out leaflets what? I will not hassle any member of the public to take a leaflet as that is wrong, but also I hate it when people hand out leaflets in the street and ten yards down you are ankle deep in them! So as I say I don?t know what to expect but I feel that it is important that I go. I shall be wearing my ?virtual mother? t-shirt, as that is what I am. I hope to meet Spuddy and Cheesy there and Post sue, (If we can get her head out of the freezer and wean her off the ice pops- sorry private joke!).
Thank you to those of you who have said that you will come, even if it is just half an hour. I really look forward to meeting you.
Edam, I have a phone number for the organisers and they would love to hear from your mum! I would like to email you privately though, did you get my email?
Lots of love Bunglie XX

Oh sorry IKNT - I meant to put also that I will take my digital camera, and I will email pictures for you.

Oh God Bunglie so sorry, didn't check my 'Friday' email address (I work from home on Fridays so tend to only use that address once a week and this week has genuinely been overwhelming at work. Sorry again). Have emailed you now and given you my other contact details as well as some information. They need to send repeat press releases out via email or fax on MONDAY; have given you some suggested addresses.

... and I've just seen the lovely message you posted on the child protection referral thread. You put it so well. Bless you.
I'm off for the night now but do email or call tomorrow and apologies again for not checking my Friday email before.

Hi all

Thank you bunglie that will be much appreciated (piks that is)
I have to tell some one so gonna tell you all here... Progress was made Yesterday of a big kind and Im so proud, My Daughter took her daughter to a doctors app yesterday for the first time on her own. My Grandaughter was a year old last week... Im so happy she finally done it alone after all she's been through WOW...

Take care and be safe all
InnKogNeeToe

IKNT really happy for your daughter, that's such an amazing thing for her to do.

Re the ralley (sp?) Doh! I'd got it into my head it was Sunday but now realise 28th is Saturday. Bunglie, tell the organisers to get onto the SUNDAY papers, they want news stories that happen on Saturdays so they've got something new rather than rehashing the week's news.

IKNT - That's Brilliant

I owe you an email, I will write.

Cheeseball and Spuddy, where are you? Do let us know how things are going?

Postsue, what about you, any news?

Some interesting research - this from this week's Economist:

Sudden infant-death syndrome: Foredoomed or forewarned?

Cot deaths are caused, in part, by genes

DOES sudden infant-death syndrome (SIDS), or "cot death", run in families? That question is both medically significant (for establishing which children are most at risk, and advising parents accordingly) and legally significant (since if it does, it would provide an alternative explanation to serial infanticide in cases where more than one baby in a family has died). It may also be sociologically significant since, in America at least, SIDS is more common in African-descended children than in European-descended ones--a fact that the prejudiced might be inclined to lay at the door of the parents.

Work published in September's issue of Pediatric Research, by Debra Weese-Mayer, of Rush University in Chicago, and her colleagues, suggests that a predisposition to SIDS may, indeed, be inherited. Dr Weese-Mayer has found a link between SIDS and mutations of several genes involved in the construction and function of the autonomic nervous system. This part of the nervous system controls many organs and muscles, including those involved in breathing. Mutations affecting it might easily cause infantile death.

Dr Weese-Mayer's team identified several sections of DNA that are harbouring autonomic-nervous-system-related genes. They sequenced these sections from the chromosomes of 92 babies who had died of SIDS, and compared the results with those from the same chromosomal regions in 92 control babies who had passed their first birthdays (SIDS generally strikes in the first year of life) and who had no family history of diseases of the autonomic nervous system. The study found 11 different autonomic-nervous-system-related mutations in 14 of the SIDS babies, but only one such mutation in two of the controls. Of the SIDS babies who had at least one mutation, 71% were classified as "black".

If confirmed by further research, this will be an important result. SIDS claims some 2,300 babies a year in America. In Britain, the figure is around 300. Clearly, bad genes are not the only factor. Other risks include the baby's sleeping position. Campaigns such as "Back to Sleep", which urged parents to put babies to sleep on their backs, led to a 75% fall in SIDS cases between 1986 and 1998 in Britain. In America, similar campaigns have led to similar decreases. But establishing a genetic component to SIDSand showing which genes are involvedwill help to show how the risks interact.

It will also help defendants. In Britain, Trupti Patel was accused of multiple murder after three of her babies died. Sir Roy Meadow, a consultant paediatrician who has been involved in a number of cot-death cases, told the court categorically that "sudden, unexpected death does not run in families". Mrs Patel's grandmother begged to differ. She told the court that she had suffered five similar deaths, and Mrs Patel was acquitted.

Because of the Patel case and others like it, Sir Roy is being investigated for serious professional misconduct by the General Medical Council, the governing body of Britain's doctors. The country's attorney-general, Lord Goldsmith, has so far reviewed more than 100 cases similar to Mrs Patel's, but announced earlier this year that only a few will be referred to the Court of Appeal. Perhaps Dr Weese-Mayer's evidence will persuade him to look again.

Now that does throw 'Meadow's Law' out the window.

What was it he said 'One was .....Two was.....and three was murder' I can't remember, who can?

It is so hard to beleive that the courts ignored this for so many years, and yet the families knew, in fact when my own children were born I remember a mother who had her child in the SCBU, and because she had already had a child die of SIDS she was offered an 'apnoea matress' to take home. So they did know of the risk, but the courts chose to ignore it in favour of Meadow's et al

If any of you can make it to Trafalgar Square on Saturday I will see you there. I spoke to Spuddy last night and she said that her and Cheesy are doing alright. Cheesy can't borrow the laptop because it's got a virus and needs looking at! However Spuddy and Cheesy will be at the Rally.

Are you still coming Postsue?

You will be there in 'spirit' IKNT, I shall email you some piccys.

I want to add a little note here, I am sorry to those of you who thought I might have been or going to Beety's wonderful Summer Party. If you had been following the thread, you will see I was 'teasing' Wobblyknicks - what a good sport she was! I would have loved to have gone, but felt that just for the moment it would not have been practical and I shall be at next years. So, give us the date now Beety so we can all put it in our diaries .
Seriously, I would loved to have met you, you have helped me keep my perspective and sanity. Given me support and advise. I will, I hope shortly be able to 'come out of the closset' and meet you all, if only to give you real hugs and say thank you.

Another interesting news snippet, from Waveguide :

A drama based on the true story of Angela Cannings, who was wrongly convicted of killing two of her children, has been commissioned for BBC One.

After a two-year battle for justice, Angela's conviction was quashed, assisted by new evidence which was uncovered by the BBC current affairs programme Real Story.

The new evidence which led to Angela's acquittal included key details in Angela's genetic history. Her family had a history of cot deaths and her half-sister also suffered miscarriages. Her half-sister's children also suffered similar health problems to Angela's children.

Angela's acquittal created a landmark in legal history, resulting in a change of the law.
Since then, nobody can be convicted in a criminal case on expert witness alone without proper physical evidence, such as that which would be required in any murder case.

Angela Cannings said: "We're still suffering the aftermath of this whole episode.

"This film is for Jade, my daughter's benefit, so when she is older she can see what it was all about.

"The general public would assume that we've got back together and that's it. But there is an awful lot of healing. It doesn't just heal overnight. Even now I sit and think why we had to go through all that.

"We've had quite a lot to do with the scriptwriter, the BBC has been very good. They've dealt with us very fairly."

Angela was convicted of the murder of two of her children with no physical evidence.

For the first time, the drama reveals key behind-the scenes action, where the decision to charge Angela was based purely on the opinion of three experts, including the now-discredited Professor Sir Roy Meadow.

It was his statistic that stated there was a 73 million to one chance of two children in the same family dying of cot death.

Sue Hogg, executive producer, said: "Angela was effectively living a prison sentence even before she was convicted because she had to move out of the family home and had only limited access to her daughter Jade.

"Eventually, she was allowed five visits a week for two hours and only in the presence of a social worker.

"But the film doesn't demonise the social services or the police. They are just people in society doing a very tough job, but a tough job which, when there is a miscarriage of justice, can have terrible consequences."

Filming will begin in the autumn of this year.

=====

Also this, which I somehow missed earlier, from a written answer to the Lord on 22nd July recorded by Hansard . Not much of a song and dance about it - and it was rather hidden from public view, but positive news anyway.

The Attorney-General (Lord Goldsmith): I announced in January a review of cases of parents and carers convicted of killing an infant under the age of two in the past 10 years.

This followed the Court of Appeal's decision to quash the conviction of Angela Cannings. The court's judgment questioned the safety of convictions depending exclusively, or almost exclusively, on a serious disagreement between distinguished and reputable experts.

In May, I announced that my office had notified the legal representatives of five defendants that it may be appropriate for the safety of their clients' convictions to be considered further by the Court of Appeal or, if appropriate, the Criminal Cases Review Commission. Since that time, as part of the process of ongoing review, my office has written in similar terms to the legal representatives of 19 further defendants.

The fact that a case has been referred to legal representatives of the convicted person does not amount to a positive determination that their conviction is unsafe. Should any appeals result from this review, it will be for the Crown Prosecution Service to independently decide whether to contest the appeal.

I aim to complete the review in September, when I will report fully to the House. The review is continuing to be accorded the highest priority, to bring to an end this period of uncertainty for all those involved.

The media don't seem to have picked up on this much - but there was one reference to it in the Observer on 26th July .

I seem to remeber us saying here when they announced the "only 5" figure early on that it was bound to go up, not just because they'd tackle the most obvious cases first, but because it was obviously politically advantageous for there to be "no widescale miscarriages of justice" headlines then, and hope that higher figures later could be brushed under the carpet as public memory of Cannings et al receded.

Also, to add to the list of research which disproves Meadows, there's this

Think Meadows said something like: one is unfortunately, two is suspicious, three is murder. Clearly man on an huge power trip.

Has anyone read this weeks 'Take a Break' mag?
The headline is 'Witch Hunt of Mums' The first of the two stories is awful, not MSbP, but it shows how the system works....
The second story involves Southall, and is equally awful.

I know that the mother of the first story will be at the Rally on Saturday, (2-6pm Trafalgar Sq. - just in case you had forgotten !!!). The BBC are doing an item in there morning breakfast show on it and interviewing the organiser, and BBC 24 will be sending a camera crew to film it. However I will be well behind the camera, no piccy's of me.

Thank you Edam, your input and advice have really worked wonders...they are all coming it seems, the press that is.

The Rally is not just on MSbP, but on ALL cases where mothers have been unjustly seperated from their children, most of these are of course MSbP allegations.

I am going, as are Spuddy, Cheesy and we think Postsue, because I have sat and done nothing, but write. I would not go to a demonstration, but a Peaceful Rally for the Family, yes I feel that I have to DO something, not just sit on my backside, but I have not yet got the courage to be filmed or anything like that as I would be breaking the court order.

I will not mention it again, I PROMISE, but if any of you do want to come, please just pop in for half an hour and see what is happenning to our children in society.

Bunglie, I have spent most of yesterday and today reading up on your various threads about MSBP. I just want to say, I am thinking of you and all the other mothers on the 'lost mothers' threads.

As you know, and have so kindly advised me on, I have had my own recent problems with SS.

If I was nearer London I would be in the front row of your Rally on Saturday.

With love and best wishes.

Thank you Pacific,

I hope things work out for you, I don't want you to worry though that this could happen to you.

I know I said I wouldn't mention it, but there is a telephone interview with the organiser on BBC Radio 2, Breakfast show between 7-8am.

LunarSea, I don't know how you find the 'links' but I am very glad you do. I am astonished at what I am reading half of the time, I just don't know how to comment except with .

I will keep you updated with Cheesy's progress, as she does not have access to a 'puter at the moment. I have spoken to Spuddy and it seems that all is well and they are both settling in well, although Spuddy is feeling a bit lonely at times, she is looking at the possibility of a MNers Meet-up where she is. I hope she manages to post her news soon as she said she would, but as usual I pass on their thanks and love to you all.

Hi All

I will be thinking of you all this weekend and wishing I could be at your Peacfull rally...

Get lots of pics Bunglie, I look forward to seeing them all... Good luck and hope all goes to plan..

take care and besafe all
InnKogNeeToe

I just want to say,
"What an amazing lot you are, and Thank you"

A MNer, and she knows who she is, lives in London, but because she is going to be away tomorrow, and can't go to Trafalgar Sq. Without ever meeting me, she offered to post me a key to her house, so that I can spend the night there without having to travel to London and back in a day!

I think that was a wonderful and kind gesture and I am totally overwhelmed by this act of trust and generosity.

I think that you are all wonderful, and whether you can come or not, just the suppost that you have shown to the FIVE of us, is fantastic.

Yes, there are now five of us who have got to know each other, but only due to Mumsnet and your support. I think that is something that I know I am sincerely grateful for but also it has enabled me to do things, cope and manage my life far better than I ever have in the last 15 years.

Now that you are all blushing with the well deserved praise, I hope you can forgive me when I have my little outbursts on other threads!!

I am trying hard to break the habbit of going outside at 5.30am to kill slugs and snails, (yes, and video them in their demise)I l0ved the suggestion of naming the yape 'Slimewatch UK'

Now that my feet are firmly back on the ground, and I know tech is not going to remove MN from my computer screen forever, I am back to normal!

The only news that I have for you is that I have not been able to contact my ds yet, but I did send a letter as you all suggested.

My dd seems to have done OK in her AS levels but although again I have not been able to talk to her, the info came from a friend, she feels that she has let everyone down by not getting good grades. Well I think the grades she got were great, and one of them was an A grade.

Hopefully it will not be too long before I can have contact with them, then I shall have some more news for you.

In a strange sort of way I am feeling aprehensive over tomorrow, but I have heard that the lady who did the 'Take a Break' article is being interviewed by the Times newspaper and they are going to do a piece on the Rally, so I am glad for her, but I have not yet got the courage to speak out and break the court order. So, I am afraid when the camera's are about, Bunglie will be elsewhere!

For those of you who have said that you would like to 'poke your heads in' I will look forward to that, I am going to wear my 'Virtual Mother T-shirt, or Hoodie, so you will not miss me.

Lots of love and thanks to you ALL, especially the MNer who offered me a bed for the night.
Bunglie XX

Bunglie & everyone, was thinking of you today. Hope it went well X

I have JUST got home, I will post tomorrow....when I wake up, Probably the afternoon)

Many thanks to those who came it was G-R-E-A-T to meet you, and 'litte edam' and 'little meanbeans (a tin of beans, full of beans. )

As I say I will post tomorrow, but

THANK YOU!

Time I went to bed now....[smile)

Got some photos for you IKNT....

A very quick post, makes a change for me!

I have some lovely photo's of a baby 'Edam' and a 'meanbean' Iwould like to send, can I use Janh??? as I do not know your email 'meanbean'.

I am posting an article that was in Todays Derbyshire Telegraph.... I am posting it rather than putting a link to the online site as it changes daily.

MY DAUGHTER WILL NEVER COME HOME BUT I WANT HER TO KNOW I LOVE HER

09:30 - 30 August 2004

While most people have been spending the bank holiday weekend relaxing, Somercotes mum Yvonne Coulter has been in London campaigning. She is a driven woman. Wronged by an apparent injustice of the care system 15 years ago which robbed her of her daughter, she now works tirelessly to clear her name and help others in similar situations. She tells Martin Burley her story.

I was proud to join hundreds of parents in London's Trafalgar Square on Saturday for a peaceful rally. We were bought together through the heartbreak of losing children because of injustices in the family courts and mistakes made by social services.

My daughter was taken away from me by social services when she was a baby 15 years ago. They tried to take her younger brother too but failed.

I have been campaigning to clear my name ever since. And, although I know I will never get my daughter back, I want her to know the truth when she is old enough. I want her to know that I have always loved her and never wanted to give her up.

The recent case of Angela Canning, who was cleared of killing her two children who died from cot death, has allowed many cases of injustice to be re-examined.

However, cases such as mine aren't subject to this new ruling. I and many other parents have, through a website called socialservicesabuse.com, set up a pressure group to change the law so we can challenge the authorities and clear our names. It was under the umbrella of that website that Saturday's rally was organised. It brought together parents from various campaigning groups who want to end the secrecy of the family courts and see changes to improve Britain's social services structure.

Hopefully my story will highlight the problems with the care system and give other parents in situations like this hope. It all began when I fell pregnant at 16. I had been with my boyfriend for a couple of years, but we were very young and argued a lot. With the baby due, I decided to end the relationship. I had the support of my family and wanted to become a good mother.

I moved into a new home with my daughter, Chloe, and began my new life. However my whole world shattered around me when she was seven months old. She was in a bouncing cradle playing with an activity toy. I went into the kitchen to fetch her last bottle before putting her put to bed. When I came back into the living room, the cradle had tipped forward and Chloe had bumped her cheek on the hearth of the fireplace.

One side of her cheek was badly bruised but, other than that, she seemed fine. She slept well that night and I was thankful the injury hadn't been any worse.

Two days later someone from social services turned up on my doorstep. He told me there had been a report from someone that I had injured my child. I was mortified. I would never have harmed Chloe.

I got upset and, fighting back the tears, explained how Chloe's injury had occurred. He told me he had already made an appointment at my doctors so they could check her over. I calmed down and agreed to go. I just wanted the whole incident over with.

The doctor said that Chloe had been well looked after and seemed to accept my account of the accident as truthful. The social worker asked him three times to refer Chloe to the Children's Hospital so a paediatrician could examine her, but he refused.

The social worker asked me to leave the room. Looking back I should have refused. I don't know what was said in there but it changed my life. The social worker came out of the surgery with a referral letter and told me we were going to hospital.

I started crying again. When we reached the hospital I phoned my parents and waited for the pediatricians to examine Chloe.

The social worker came into my room and told me he had a place and safety order on my daughter. He said if I tried to leave the hospital with Chloe I would be charged with kidnapping my own daughter.

Everything seemed unreal, as if it were all a dream. I was only 17. I couldn't understand why this was happening to me.

Chloe was placed with a foster family five miles from my home. I was allowed to visit her, but only with them present. It was heartbreaking. Imagine having to leave your baby with complete strangers.

This went on for some months and I began to build up a good relationship with the foster mother. She let me extend the visits and we became friends. Then I became pregnant again.

Meanwhile interim care orders kept Chloe with her foster parents. But I never gave up hope. A family court hearing, during which my solicitor was due to submit new medical evidence to help me get her back, preyed on my mind all through my pregnancy.

A well-respected paediatrician testified that Chloe's injury could not have occurred in the way it had been suggested - by me grasping Chloe around the mouth and squeezing her hard to cause the bruise. The paediatrician said that bruising would have been caused to both sides of the face if this had been the case, and that there would have been some red and white spots around her mouth.

However, this evidence was ignored by the court because Chloe was not allowed to come back to me. I think all of this added stress contributed to me going into labour a month early. My son, Cameron, was born on December 15, 1990 - two days after a case hearing to discuss the future of my unborn child. At that hearing I was told that he would be taken into care too.

My son was delivered at 2.08pm. At 2.09pm a male social worker came into the delivery suite. Christopher had breathing difficulties and was being worked on by the doctors. The social worker tried to serve me with papers to take my son into care. He was escorted away by the nurses.

Cameron was taken into the intensive care unit and stayed there for eight days. I was by his side constantly. I daren't even go to the toilet as I thought they would take him away while I was gone. It must have been written into my hospital notes that social services had to be informed as soon as my baby was born. They must have been contacted while I was in labour.

However, the hospital said my son could go home for Christmas and my solicitor arranged that we would all stay with my parents.

In January we attended a court hearing as social services still wanted to put Cameron into care. I won the hearing and was allowed to keep him. I was so relieved. Now I would have the opportunity to take him home and prove that I was a good mother. All I wanted now was Chloe back.

But one day my social worker arrived at Chloe's foster parents' home and removed her from their care. They said that her foster mother had been suffering from depression.

They placed my daughter at another venue - with a pre-adoptive family. I just wanted to get the case to court as quickly as possible to get her home. A court date came through but social services adjourned it and informed me they were trying for a freeing order. This would pave the way for Chloe to be adopted.

Cameron was 18 months old now and anyone could see he was well cared for. I felt I had proved I was a good parent.

When the case came up, the judge asked the social worker why she had never had a good word to say about me as a mother and she couldn't answer. Everyone had prepared notes about the case and the judge retired to give his verdict.

He'd only been gone an hour before he came back to tell me that Chloe had bonded with her pre-adoptive parents and that if she was returned to me I would be a stranger to her.

My whole world caved in. I hadn't done anything wrong, but Chloe had been taken away from me. How could this be allowed to happen?

The only thing I could do was to concentrate on Cameron and give him all the love and attention he needed. He is now 13. I have another daughter, Kelis, aged three, who is the spitting image of Chloe. I have had a settled relationship with my partner Paul (33), a tyre and exhaust fitter, for 10 years. He has been a tower of strength. But our family is not complete.

I realise my daughter will not be coming home now. She has her own life - a happy one I hope - and I don't want to turn it upside down. All I want is for my case to be heard, to have my name cleared and for a note to be put on her file so that when she reaches 18 she will know the truth.

Imagine how hurt she would be if she discovered she had a brother and sister who I had kept. The situation also affects your family. Cameron is nearly 14 now and he said: "I could go out and meet a girl and it could be my sister."

Taking Chloe away has changed my life in many different ways. I now spend a lot of time helping other parents who have suffered like me. It's my way of coping. I want to change the care system so that it protects children and parents.

Of course there are cases of terrible abuse, and these should be dealt with quickly and effectively. But parents who are innocent need to be heard as well, and this is what I am campaigning for. Until there is a change in the law and more transparency in the procedures, miscarriages of justice will continue.

I am trying to use the experience in a positive way. I help parents who contact me through www.socialservicesabuse.com and I have attended court hearings to support families. I enjoy doing it, but nothing can ever stop the pain. Every Christmas, on Chloe's birthday and on every Mother's Day I suffer. I always think of her.

I hope to speak to her one day but only as adults. Her childhood has been ripped away from me.

Chloe had her christian name changed by her new parents when she was three. I still can't comprehend how a child can deal with something like that.

We have changed Chloe's name to protect her.

Bunglie, that is such a sad story - glad she managed to keep her son but very painful otherwise.

Am happy to act as conduit for cheese and beans btw!

Hey Bunglie it was very special day. Proud to be there (even if we did spend most of our time feeding ds ? appetite of a gannet!). I actually felt quite shy about meeting you, it's weird meeting someone you know so well in virtual life...
Thanks very much for the photos, look forward to seeing them. Mini-babybel (Twiglett's name for him!) slept all the way from Trafalgar Square to King's Cross, all the way home on the train and a good few hours once back home as well - clearly worn out by all the excitement .
Amazing to read Yvonne's story and a privilege to meet her.