Deary me, did anybody read this piece about abortion by Caitlin Moran?

[emkana]

Dare I post this link

But I think, to go back to your points "sucked out and killed after" and "brains smashed" can now be safely dismissed as quite despicable emotive rubbish. If I were facing you in real life I?d tell you so too.

I've said this before, but there are ethics boards debating these issues all of the time, this is not a neglected area and though the only option at the moment seems to be a case of non 'intervention' rather than violent intervention (FFS, who do you imagine would do this??) in such tragic cases, all that would ethically need to be introduced, for those very rare occurrences of such late abortions, is that the mother is informed that should the foetus be born still living that the doctors must invoke the Hippocratic oath and give medical aid as they would any other person. I'd be very surprised to find that this wasn't already the case.

And as for father's rights in abortion - they don't have any rights. That's a full stop there.

It will depend on individual doctors. I think often there is an assumption that a disabled child will be terminated. Certainly my friend who found she was carrying a boy with DS had an operating theatre booked for her twice, although she was quite clear all along that she was going to keep the baby. I'm sure termination for DS would be allowed past the 24 week deadline- which I think it questionable as DS is a whole different league from say anencephaly.

If a mother isn't allowed after 24 weeks to terminate beause they couldn't cope with a normally developing child (although presumably if their mental health was bad enough then there would be some leeway for termination under current rules even for a child with no disabilities) then there has to be clear guidelines as to what does constitute a "bad enough" disability. One way that would seem sesnible would be to look at compatibility with life and/or pain the child would suffer. Really a child with DS for example would not automatically fit the criteria for either of these conditions. Sow what are we deciding on? Any disability that can be picked up??? I'm not sure, but with increasing ability to detect antenatally I'd say an urgent debate was needed. I do think this discussion needs to be had becuase at the moment it seems to be down to individual doctors to decide what constitute a severe enough disability and that isn't fair on anyone. Even then you have to be careful though. For example trisomy 13 and trisomy 18 are usually described as "incompatible with life" which isn't quite accurate. Although survival past one year is very rare (but does happen). Survival for a few months isn't unusual. Different ball game again from DS. I'm not sure what the answer is, but the current situation is a mess and unclear even if these questions only arise occasionally.

That Times piece is a shocking load of anti-choice crap with scarcely any hard figures in it. MT put it rather well: all that needs to be done is for doctors to inform the woman that should a late abortion result in a live birth, the baby will then be given medical care.

Another point which I wonder about is: when a late abortion occurs (for a serious medical reason as they almost always do) and there is a live birth, is there a distinction being made between live birth as in, some brief temporary indications of life, and a live birth which results in a baby surviving several years or even into adulthood? Because there are some medical conditions that, should the pregnant woman decide to continue with the pregnancy, will inevitably result in either stillbirth or death almost immediately after birth.

And another thing: whoever suggested that fathers ought to have some say: if men were given the right to force a woman to continue a pregnancy against her wishes, what's then to stop them obtaining the right to force a woman to terminate a pregnancy because the man doesn't want the baby? Either a woman is a human being, with the right to make decisions based on her best interests (even those these decision may be at the expense of a potential, rather than an actual human being) or she's a piece of property who anyone can insist is used as an incubator.

My god that article almost reduced me to tears because in part it felt like I had written it. For so long I have felt so guilty for not going through with the pregnancy of what would have been my third child, just like the author. I got pregnant 2 months after the birth of my son and I had not liked being pregnant I was traumatised by the birth and did not cope very well with a new born baby and a toddler as it was. DP and I talked and talked into the night about the best thing for us as a couple and the children had to be taken into account.

I never felt guilty as I knew it was the right thing to do for us but it haunted me when it was supposed to have been born, how old it would be now, what it would be doing now and that will go on for the rest of my life so believe there is still a price to pay even if you believe you are doing the right thing.

But in the article CM doesn't seem to have any regretts at all.
I really feel for you choochie.

I am sure it must affect her in some way. She maybe felt it was the right decision to make but she must think about it from time to time and the "what could have been".

I am quite spiritual and believe in the afterlife etc and I once watched a drama (not real I know) about a woman who had an abortion and the little soul was still hanging around her family. That absolutely devastated me and for months I felt so much guilty and remorse. I now think that I could have coped if I had continued as now I would have a 7 year old a 5 year old and a 4 year old and thats what hurts more.

Easlier in this thread some people got quite annoyed that I didn't believe CM could really have mad her decision so lightly.
I can really relate to the soul hanging around. I'm not at all religous, but felt the soul of my seven week old baby stay with me for a few days.

Oh so sorry chocolateface cannot even imagine how you feel.

Yes I think because I believe in spirits it was devastating to think that the soul of the child that was not to be was there watching me and thinking "how could you Mum?" when I gave the right to my other two children being born.

Choochie, chocolate face, while I'm sorry for your distress, you are neither of you Caitlin Moran and you do not know her life/feelings/beliefs/experiences better than she does. Abortion should be avialable to every woman who wants to end her pregnancy, and every woman is entitled to her own decision and her own feelings about it, be they relief, sorrow or indifference.

I did not say I was distressed. I did not say I had any understanding of CF's beliefs, or life, although CM has given us some indication. I have doubted on this thread that she is as comfortable with her decision as she appears to be in the article. If there are women who do decide to terminate their prenancy, for what ever reason, and can feel absolutely no remorse, or guilt,and have no regrettes, good for them. I don't wish these emotions on anybody.
CM has brought the sbjuct of abortion into the open in her article. But that's exacly wahat it is, an article, written by a journalist who is paid to write articles.It's not her personal diary. And yes, I do believe that while many women will feel a huge relief at having a termination, the very vast majority will also have feelings of unease.
Madamez, you believe every woman who wants to end a pregnancy should be able to do so. This is your oppinion. We understand that. It doesn't mean you are right. I haven't said your wrong.

totally agree with you chocolate face.

Thanks choochie

As I said below late abortions are rare although awful up to the time of birth for certain conditions. Doctors decide all the time what intervention to give. I imagine with my sister who was born with down's syndrome in the 1960s who died they had to determine whether to operate or not. I just found last week this extract from my mother's baby diary/book I got typed up last year. I have always wondered to what extent they chose not to operate on a down's child. It is very very sad. Amazing how different things are now in terms of parents staying with the sick child in hospital all the time etc.

"June 3rd
Had a girl, JKL. She was only 18 inches long. 5 lbs 8 oz in weight and was blue. Was given oxygen immediately. I thought she looked odd. No one else seemed to. I had a ghastly night. Dragged myself out of bed to look at her, cuddles her all night and she felt frozen.
Found by 10.30 next morning a child specialist sent for, e.g. [ XXX]. She had a bad heart and was taken into the Baby Hospital by MNO at 11 o?clock. He came home with an empty carry-cot at 12.10 and I was heart-broken. I?ve been upset for 4 days now. She is not improving. They are going to operate. She also has an odd chromosome count, skin infection and eye infection. What are we all going to do?
GHI loved her and kept saying ?GHI see the baby?. Then ABC and DEF cuddled and held her so efficiently. They?ve all been odd ever since. ABC is demanding and bossy. DEF is clingy and weepy. GHI has developed a stutter. I am rather dazed still and confused. MNO is upset too!
June 23rd
JKL died on June 23rd at 10 o?clock. The hospital rang up and told me before bedtime.
I feel so sad about it all. I can?t concentrate on anything. I don?t wish to eat etc and feel that everything is so hard and cruel.
The children are sad about Baby JKL. ABC is asking questions about heart defects and DEF is so weepy and babyish. MNO is very bad tempered.
June 26th
I went to JKL?s funeral alone. MNO had to look after GHI and the girls had to be brought home from school. It was so sad for me.
June 29th
We are all still sad! DEF is ill today. She has vomited all day and seems to have a sniffly cold."

Aw, Xenia.

How sad for your family .

Poor little bitty baby.

I was 7 and I don't remember feeling upset. I remember feeling embarrassed at school, with the attention about my sister having died. We only found my mother's baby book/diary last year when I was going through her things after her death. But right until she died every time she saw a child with down's with a mother she wished that was her. She also wished there were photos taken in those days of seriously ill new babies who might not survive and she wished there was a marked grave with gravestone rather than burial in an unmarked grave at the cemetry. Anyway I got slightly off the point.

This is the interesting bit in summarising UK adoption law "There is no time limit on abortion where two doctors agree that a woman?s health or life is gravely threatened by continuing with the pregnancy or that the fetus is likely to be born with severe physical or mental abnormalities." What is a servere physical abnormality - presumably no legs and arms for example but what if just no right foot?

When I was pregnant with ds I was told that I had the option to terminate the pregnancy past 24 weeks -
at first they thought he had ventriculomegaly, which in 60 % of cases goes with completely normal development, in 30 % of cases mild developmental delay, 10 % severe delay.

Then they found out that he had a skeletal dysplasia (dwarfism), but they couldn't be specific which type (there are over 200).

Even though with the most common types of skeletal dysplasias the only physical abnormality is short stature the option of a termination was offered to me.

Gives me the shivers now when I look at ds.

yes, that's part of the problem emkana. The medics do tend to always give the worse case scenario, so scare the bejeezus out of you.

I mean a post 24 weeks termination has surely got to be horrific- whatever the reason, and even if it is 'for the best'. when you weigh that up against short stature.....

There is an incredibly moving documentary by a (female) German filmmaker, who decided to not terminate her pregnancy when it was found that her baby had trisomy 18? or 13? can't remember which, sorry.

The film shows the birth and the time after the birth when she holds this baby until he dies.

Compared to what I read about the realities of late abortions, this seems so much more humane...

but I think you must be very, very strong to be able to do this.

I think I'd progress a pregnancy like that. I did find when I was pregnant with the twins some of the stats and choices people are given strange. If there's a one in 20 chance of something then surely that's actuallyr eally small. You're 19 times more likely to have a baby that's normal than not and to abort on those grounds is surely a ridiculous thing to do. I didn't have any tests with the twins as I wouldn't have aborted them.

ah- I found a website that was dedicated to a boy with trisomy 13. It was beutiful. He died aged 3 or 4 months. Until Iread that website I thought that trisomy 13 and 18 were completely incompatible with life in the way that say anencephaly is. I thought all children with trisomy 13 or 18 diesd within a few hours of birth. From that website I found a lot more websites and found that living for a few months, up to a year- is not unusual at all.

The little boy I first read about was the first child of a couple who had been trying for about 10 years to have a child, they thought they were infertile. it was a real celebration of his life. Absolutely amazing. Completely changed my view on lots of things (around the time I found this site ds1 started at his SLD/PMLD school as well- and meeting other parents there with children with truly devastating disabilities also changed my mind a lot).

Xenia, your mother's experience was...I don't know, women didn't get much help, did they? Must have been heartbreaking to re-visit all that as an adult.

If the mother's life was gravely threatened is one thing - but very late for a condition of the baby - very hard, I think. Frogs wrote movingly once of a relative who chose to give birth to a child with a non-viable trisomy and what that gave the family, as opposed to a v late termination.
And there is a MN-er who was offered a termination at 30 weeks for a baby with talipes. Which turned out to be positional - i.e correctable with physio and minor intervention.

Gess, there is a person who has lived past young childhood in the UK with Edward's Syndrome. She was adopted by a lady in her 50s. She's been featured on several TV programmes.

She is very profoundly disabled, and so far she is one of only a handful of people afflicted with Edward's Syndrome who has survived past infancy.