Deary me, did anybody read this piece about abortion by Caitlin Moran?

[emkana]

Dare I post this link

Bubble, I agree at the moment that the good of the majority has to be applied. This country (let alone the rest of the world) would not cope with anti-abortion legislation. However that does not make abortion right. It does not address the rights of the baby or the moral obligation of our society to protect the rights of those who cannot protect themsleves.
I think we should work towards a third viable alternative. Obviously it would need compromise from the mother but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect such a compromise when you think of the alternative.

By compromise, Bambi, are you thinking of adoption?

Edam. I agree. Hip replacement? Yuk! Cement, drills etc.

agree with bubble about the adoption point. Also some children really really struggle psychologically with the knowledge they were adopted. It's not always a straightforward solution.

The thing is, this can never be a black and white debate. There are too many shades of grey.

I don't think that there can be a reasonable and rational person alive who would insist that a woman made pregnant through rape, should be made to carry a child conceived through violence, to term.

And, by agreeing to abortion for cases of rape, we've then broken the 'all abortion is wrong' rule.

What I mean is that for whatever reason a woman has an abortion there could be another solution offered other than abortion. Financial difficulties could be helped, counselling could be given to show other routes.
I think alot of woman have abortions and live to regret their decision.

Also, I don't think you can compare a baby's brain being 'smashed' as Xenia decribed it, with a hip operation. That is insensitive in the extreme.

I agree, Bubble. If you think it is about the rights of the feotus, then how do the circumstances of the conception make a difference? because you can imagine what it must be like for a woman who was raped to be unwillingfly pregnant through no fault of6 her own. However, for many women carrying an unwanted pg is desparately traumatic, and with al this emphasis on 'then take responsibility for conception' then you are saying that a decision about abortion rests on whether you think it is the woman's 'fault' or not - and if it is she should have the baby - as recompense for her carelessness.

And blase and feeling free of guilt are not the same thng.

All this article is saying is that many women have abortions and do not regret the decision.
Which is true but no-one dares say so for fear of being labelled 'not decent'.

Counselling? Great!

The sticky point here, IMO, is the financial help.

IME, most women seek abortion as they cannot cope emotionally or financially with a (or another) child.

Let's see the pro-life movement put money where mouth is and commit to longterm financial support for these children.

The sort of support that will allow women (and there existing families) with the extra child that they were talked into having a comfortable quality of life.

Can't see it happening myself.

Pro-lifers waving placards outside abortion clinics are not very interested in what happens to the life they save.

Interesting articles

btw we don't spell 'legalization' with a 'z' in this county

Pedant.

hmm a pedant who typed 'articleS' instead of 'article' and 'county' instead of 'country'

As the victim of falling pregnant due to rape and then having a termination I can assure you that there was no other way for me.
I could not keep the child, the man had stalked me, harassed me, threatened my son, tried to tamper with my car brakes.

Yet due to the shitty stalking laws in this country and impossibility of getting rape charges pressed when you know your attacker, it meant that even had I been altruistic and kept the baby HE would have had legal rights, he could and WOULD have pursued me through the courts. FGS on the day of the abortion (he found out by lying to hospital) he tried to crash into the damned theatre.

I would have even had legal issues had I tried to have any child adopted from his family (all delusional witches IMO), and what about that child tracing him or me in the future. Their father was and still is an animal.

Sometimes there is no other choice and thank God beyond Gods (an I'm an agnostic) that I was living in a country where I had another choice.

I don't regret it, it was all I wanted and I thought about more than just me at the time.

Bubble, I agree that counselling was a pretty lame option.
There ARE other options that can be considered though. Of course non of the other options are going to be as quick and tidy as an abortion.
If you believe that an unborn baby is an actual baby, a life, then the baby should have some protection.
FWIW, of course I don't think a raped woman should be forced to carry a baby to term. These kind of cases are few and far between, I am talking about people taking a casual approach to something that ultimately ends a human life.
Yes it should be available as an option, but it should be a last option (and carried out before 12 weeks (for non medical reasons))

If we all (and I sincerely hope we do) agree that abortion should be 'allowed' for rape cases then we have agreed that abortion is allowed in some cases^.

We're then, as a society, only allowing abortion if we feel the woman has suffered enough.

What a hellish experience Piffle.

I fully agree that abortion beyond 12 weeks should be avoided except in circumstances tha couldn't be foreseen before 12 weeks - i.e a medical reason, etc.

But, in order to facilitate that, i actually think that women should be able to access 'abortion on demand' as early as possible in the pg.

I wonder how many women have abortions solely due to financial reasons? As far as MN is concerned, i see many people being v worried about money, but then, if having a baby is what, in theeir hearts, they want to do, thsy do it, money or not.

I thnk women have terminations because, basically, they do not want to be a mother of a (nother) child. They maight have done in the past, they might in the future, but being a mother is major. People who don't want to be a mother should not be forced to carry a baby.

Piffle

Your case makes me glad that we have the abortion laws that we have in this country.

Bambi. I think that most women who have abortions before 12 weeks have an overwhelming sense of relief, TBH.

In later cases (of which there are few) I think that the relief is often tinged with sadness. A woman having an abortion at 23 weeks will have felt movement.

IMO, this means that there reasons for wanting an abortion must have been very compelling. I can't imagine that any woman having a late abortion takes it 'lightly.'

Bubble - exactly. Put so much more succinctly than I did!

Piffle .

One doctor to prescribe and/or carry out the abortion and the woman's consent is the way to go, I agree.

Aside from medical abortions (serious defects shown at 20 week scan) most late abortions are either for peri-menopausal women or very young teenagers who have tried to hide a pregnancy, IME.

I suspect a significant proportion of abortions beyond 12 weeks are there because doctors are obstructive, tbh, or the NHS in some areas doesn't provide enough healthcare to meet demand. Which is pretty shameful. But PCTs get away with it because who is going to kick up a fuss about lack of provision?

GPs who are anti-abortion can be pretty vicious and deliberately make things very difficult. Personally I think any doctor who has moral objections to providing perfectly legal healthcare should refer any patient he doesn't want to treat to another doctor PDQ.

their

Pedants are everywhere.

I agree, edam. I've met women who have 'done the right thing' and got themselves along to a doctor at 5 weeks to ask for abortion. Sometimes they've met 'anti' GPs but often they've been put onto theatre lists and then cancelled two or three times meaning that they end up going in at 11 - 12 weeks (or even later.)

Bubble99
You think no woman who has a lat abortion takes it light ly, and it's usually peri-menopausal and tenagers who have late abortions. Surely these are two catagories for whom the decision would be so much more easy to make.