Deary me, did anybody read this piece about abortion by Caitlin Moran?

[emkana]

Dare I post this link

What an excellent post Blu .

Do we really believe this inteligent woman could have made such a decicion so lightly? Were her curcumstances such that she really couldn't effecctively care for a third cild? I think she is tying to justify the abortion to herself.

No it was lovely Adorabelle, thanks

I'm not keeping up so throwing in the towel [obvious emoticon]

Just before I go though, I don't think poverty is an option because the government will fund any child born in this country (hence thousands of women, devoid of direction and education, choosing this as an option for life)but to have another child when you don't think you will cope is unfair to your other children...

But i totally agree abortion is not contraception.

Chocolateface - yes - why shouldn't she be able to feel very clear about it?
I would if I got pregnant now. (even though I can't decide what colour crocs to get)
What on earth does her intellligence have to do with it - apart from enabling her to think twice and not accept the obligatory feeling of penitence and assumed trauma that termination candidates are supposed to don.

If she felt so clear about it, she should have been more clear about the contraception she was using.

That's your moral judgement, and based on no knowledge whatsoever about any contraception she was using.

Do you honestly think women should carry babies as 'just deserts' for carelessness, or accidents?

This discussion is about women who reject the traditional hushed tone stance to abortion and do feel clear - it is patronising to simply not believe them and assume that they feel as aashamed as you think they ought.

You don't have to feel the same - you don't have to sympathise with thier moral threshold, but you could simply believe what they have to say about thier own choices and beliefs.

I'd like to think that I am an itelligent person. On discovering I was pregnant I was very clear that I wanted an abortion. I saw no reason for any guilt, or penitence. Afterwards I was very clear that I had made the right decision, an intelligent decision. So why, afterwards, did I feel traumatised, why do feel such guilt, why is my heart aching as I type?

Chocolateface: there's no such thing as an infallible contraceptive. While it is possible to be surgically sterilized, that rules out the possiblity of ever becoming pregnant/inseminating a woman (again), which is a different matter to not wishing to start a pregnancy at present.

When I was pregnant, I spent quite a lot of time on abortion discussion groups (mainly, admittedly, for the stress-relief and amusement that comes from winding up insane redneck pigfukcers) and found myself even more pro-choice than before. While I chose to continue my thoroughly unexpected pregnancy, I found the idea of being obliged to continue a pregnancy I hadn't chosen and didn't want, even more appalling than I had previously thought. And while I extend my pro-choice viewpoint to believing that everyone has a right to their feelings and opinions about abortion(and everything else) there are few groups of people I despise as much as male anti-abortion campaigners.

I'm going to be honest and say that while it would be a very heroic choice to carry an unwanted pg to term and then give the baby up for adoption, I personally am sure I couldn't do it. I don't know what I'd do if I had a really unwanted pg (I do doubt very much I would terminate). Am pg atm, very, very much wanted. I 'knew' as soon as I was late, but it took me weeks to actually get it confirmed, because I was terrified tbh - primarily of yet another mc, but also because we were in a particularly sticky job/money situation at the time. I knew we had had 'risky' sex and before I missed my period I distinctly remember thinking 'gulp - I hope we get away with it this time'. But - despite the fact that our insecure situation didn't resolve itself for quite a while after that - those feelings soon gave way to elation and desperate hope that the scan would bring a heartbeat. There was never any real question for me that this pg was actually desperately wanted, despite it all. I don't know what it's like to have a very clear feeling that a pg is unwanted, and would therefore rather not judge. I am anti-abortion - who isn't, really? - but definitely pro-choice. I did find the kitchen worktop comment difficult - rather flippant, almost overdoing it somehow in the attempt to make the point that termination doesn't always carry this terrible weight of guilt - certainly unnecessary.

No such thing as infallible contraception? Tell me about it, I've had 3 unplanned pg's. Caitlin Moran found she was pregnant with a baby she didn't want, terminated the pregnancy, and is totally comfortable with her decitsion. Well good for her. And good for her too, for bringing a largly taboo subject into the open.

TheOriginalDesperateHouseWife, my heart
goes out to you. Having another child was obviously not something that you had planned for.

I have no doubt in my mind that you made this decision knowing full well that it was the right decision for you.
You need to remind yourself why you made the decison you did & keep it clear in your mind that you did the right thing.

Being a mum brings up feelings of guilt & doubt on a daily basis, but you cannot hold onto these feelings of guilt forever. Feel them & let them go.
We all do our best and you did what you thought was right, you have No reason to hold onto these bad, guilty feelings. We all feel sad for certain situations that came along & we dealt with either rightly or wrongly but for you let it go & realise that what has happened was something you thought about and for whatever reasons the decison was right. Thinking of youx

I don't know, DesparateHousewife - maybe there was a split between head and heart...and i'm very sorry you found it so hard. As many do. That is undeniable, and sad.

I didn't, which is probably why I believe and understand caitlin M about how she - and others - feel.

Blu- I have a friend who knew 100% that
having a termination was the best option for her. She asked what I would do in her position.

I answered her truthfully. My dh & I only have 1 child, if we were to find ourselves in the position of an unexpected pregnancy then having the child would be the decison we would come to. My friend already had 3 children & had decided her family was complete, another baby was not something thst either her or her partner had wanted/expected.

She chose to have a termination & I supported her wholeheartedly as it was the right decision. for her. Her husband had the snip on the same day as she had the termination.

The feelings both my friend & her partner have had since the termination have been very mixed. She knows it was the choice to make but still feel a sense of 'what if' & her partner too still wonders if they made the right decision. But they both realise that they made an informed & very thought out choice.

"insane redneck pigfukcers"???

Do explain that one Madamez....

VVV, oh, you know. The sort of men who refer to all women as "feminist bitches" and rant about their imaginary friends.

Also, did anyone see the "First person" piece in the Guardian weekend magazine last week about the woman who "changed her mind" halfway through an abortion? Now I'm not a medic but something about that piece sounded pretty dodgy to me...

good piece - what's the beef?

agree with every word CM has written.

I had a termination (for genetic abnormalities) and it didn't take me a second to decide and I never feel guilty about it. I understand her worktops analogy. She's just trying to make the point that it's not always a huge life-changing disaster. It was awful having a termination, but that's because I wanted the baby without genetic problems. The termination itself was not the problem.

I feel the same about abortion, if not more strongly, now that I have my baby.

I think her piece is a useful counterblast to the whole "termination is traumatic for any woman" argument which is sometimes a halfway house to "abortion is a necessary evil" and then "abortion is evil" - and this I think is what Zoe Williams was getting at.

Madamez - I saw that Guardian piece and was also a bit

An excellent article.

I think she is entitled to her views and also to do with her body as she wishes as we all do but I think the way she writes about it with such abandon is tasteless and unnecessary.I mean can you imagine someone saying that to you in a real life converation?It is a personal private thing and for some traumatic.I usually like her writing but in this case it was stuff I don't think I needed to know

Message withdrawn

Have read the article, not all of the comments tho' and altho' I don't think I could have an abortion myself, I would defend any womans right to have one. Would we really want to go back to the Vera Drakeish days of coat hangers and carbolic soap? Is this any less barbaric than an abortion anyway? Good article, wish I'd seen the Miranda Sawyer prog.

Good piece. And given the huge number of women who (a) have abortions (b) are told that of course they must feel massively guilty about them, much-needed.

LOL Cod - the one who introduced us to the parts others had never known about - namely the Pouch of Douglas!!

IMO (and im probably wrong) is that the author is justifying her own abortion to herself - so life is less important than work tops?

I always believed i was pro-choice, its the feminist thing to do, is it not? I clearly didnt think that one through!

I've had two unplanned pregnancies, one when i was 19 and a single parent living with my parents and one 16 years later whilst living with my wonderful partner and just about to reap the rewards of academic struggle. For me, there was no choice, i had both of my beautiful daughters and they bring me so much love and joy, along with sleepless nights and high BP! angst, worry and financial restriction.

Funnily enough, i was more shocked aobut my recent pregnancy (shes 18months now and alseep upstairs - bless) than the first, as my life was on a track i had chosen and this has completely thrown my plans. I thank God every day for the choices i have made, for me pro-choice is no choice, life is sacred. Technology and medical advancement does not give us the right to destroy it at a whim (ie, give it as much thought as kitchen decor ffs). I know there are further issues surrounding this as life is never cut and dry and there are situations where women simply woujldnt cope etc, rape, illness, disabilities in the foetus or existing children etc etc (these reasons are why abortion should be still legal), but had i made what i believe to have been the wrong choice, my life would have been empty. The authors suggestion that abortion is about being a good mother is the ultimate oxymoron.