Charlie Gard 17 re started

[muckypup73]

Ok guys, we have been very lucky to discuss this, please lets not give anyone anything to complain about, Mhq have been more than accomodating.

Am wondering what will happen if a non U.K. doctor (say from US or Italy) offers to help with taking Charlie home? Would the judge even entertain this idea if someone did step forward? Because I just have this feeling that someone from the US could given the coverage of Charlie there.
My head hurts from thinking that this decision could be protracted further. GOSHs statement was very clear about the intrusive ventilation Charlie is receiving which I found upsetting and shows he can't be left in limbo much longer. I trust in the Judge to make the right decisions for Charlie though.

Do other parents with terminally ill children get to call the shots this way? Because if the powers that be move heaven and earth to make this happen for these parents ( not for Charlie, just the parents) then are they setting a precedent..... will every parent from then on, get this choice of when and where too?

This quote from today's GOSH statement stood out to me as a big positive of the hospice option:

"It would offer the opportunity to create memories and, perhaps, to begin a time of healing. Specialist support for the parents and the wider family might start there."

I've only had experience with adult family members in hospices, but as much as it was about the person themselves being able to die with dignity and in as peaceful an environment as possible, the focus was on we the family being able to let go in a peaceful and dignified way too. The support for the family was amazing at a really difficult time. This feels like it could be really helpful for Charlie's parents, god knows it seems like they are going to need a huge amount of support to heal after this traumatic time.

I'm sure this would be offered at GOSH too, of course, but I can imagine C&C refusing it as they have done offers of support from the hospital to date.

Marking my place for bedtime, will find out tomorrow if the thread can stay on track!

I have a horrible feeling that a doctor from say the US or Italy might well step forward into the breach, then again I think really? Would they? I mean this case is global news is it not?

Often this last fortnight I have gone to bed thinking 'this time tomorrow there will be a conclusion to this terrible case' and yet again I am going to bed wondering what on earth the following day could bring. You couldn't make it up.

I know there was some reference to them having a palliative care expert available, but even that person, whoever it is, can't check the credentials of highly specialised doctors and nurses in a few hours

Perhaps that's exactly the point?

And well done for the excellent points you made, DustinGee

One of the things I hope is going on in the background is support for Justice Francis from his fellow judges. I have read quite a number of court judgements in the Family Court (care proceedings, end-of-life cases, medical treatment against the wishes of the parents, and so on), and those judgements are very clear and, wherever possible, are respectful and considerate towards the - for want of a better word - the "civilians" especially those who don't get legal aid and have to represent themselves.

Lord Justice Munby, who is currently the most senior judge in the Family Court has long campaigned for more openness in the Family Court, as well as criticising the lack of legal aid in such cases. This is a link to a summary of a lecture he gave: www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed61385 though the link in that summary doesn't actually lead to the full transcript of his lecture.

My point is that more openness in Family Court proceedings is generally a good thing and I think that's the tack that Judge Francis has been following. Justice only works when it's seen to be done. (Even though the Gards have legal representation, it is pro bono, and that will push the burden of costs and time onto those solicitors and barristers who take on pro bono cases.)

But going for more openness and flexibility, especially in the context of limited legal aid, has led to judges being very careful that the voices of the parents are clearly heard in court. Recent court judgements that I've read have exemplified that. And I think that's what Justice Francis is doing in this case.

Most consultants in ICU are consultant anaesthetists. It makes sense as most patients are sedated. In my local hospital they are in very short supply.

TheWeeWitch - thanks.

Oh my God - that hate mail that C&C received is absolutely vile. That's just awful. NOTHING justifies them being the recipient of that and I hope they get the police involved.

Yes the thought of a team of ICU specialists being camped out in a flat for goodness knows how long is quite ludicrous in reality. You just CANNOT take them away from the hospitals that they work in.

Well said DustinGee.

You have to have a licence to run an ITU unit. You can't set one up in a house nor a hospice. It's not permissible. DH is also wittering on about something to do with having to have a specialised HCP or something that I'm not quite sure about but it seems you can't just buy or obtain all the kit and do a DIY job.

So the options seem to be

1. Hospital. Have s bit more time but parents don't like the people/setting; or

1. Hospice but ventilation withdrawn soon after arrival. Parents may prefer the surroundings etc though

On balance, time will be the determining factor for them consciously or subconsciously so I think the judge will go for option 1 on the basis that ultimately it will be more pallatible and more importantly best for Charlie and easier for crowds to be controlled and police to be called (God forbid)

I predict hospital extubation and wouldn't be surprosed if one or more parents has to be removed by security for trying to interfere with the process. I really hope I'm wrong.

2 mins ago CA asking to share share share the request for Intensive care staff ...not something that can be drummed up in a hurry..

I've read two threads - was skipping through the last one, clicked refresh and poof! Gone. I think MNHQ made the wrong decision there, but hey ho, their site.

I would like to see Francis J to take things firmly in hand, explain that facts and beliefs are mutually exclusive, or at least that the judicial system in this country only deals in facts. Pussy-footing has done no good, just encouraged people in their disconnect from reality.

Mediation only works with people who are prepared to compromiseb, and who can follow a logical argument. This requires a certain degree of relating to reality rather than insisting that the world works they way you want it to.

The hate mail they have received is repulsive.

CA comments show there is not one iota of understanding why a desperately ill child cannot be taken home. GOSH being portrayed as unfair :(

One very good comment (IMO) on Pistonheads, that applies not just in this case but in so much that's gone on recently:

"The problem is that although everyone is entitled to their own opinion, there are millions of idiots out there who believe they are entitled to their own facts."

Have been catching up this evening as I've been out all day. Didn't manage to even see the last thread before it went poof.

I'm just place marking here really.

Like others I'm feeling angry at this mew turn of events, but feel I can't express those feelings in case they provoke others and get myself or this thread deleted.

I was against a FB page due to the simple,fact that my FB is very private and I like having this anonymous space. However, if there is a group set up on FB then please PM me the details and I'll set up a new profile in order to,join in.

It would be a shame if the discussions were not able to continue on here. I don't like to think that there are people here who wish to restrict discussion to only cover accepted viewpoints.

DH saying not to worry about Italian/US docs turning up. You have to a licence and registration to practice medicine in the UK and carry other activities such as signing death certs and prescribe.

The chances of a foreign doc with that registration and appropriate speciality appearing overnight and who wants to help is about nil. Plus there is the licence issue setting up ITU. They have to work shifts. You need a gas (wo)man (anaesthetist) x 2.

It's pointless.

I wonder what C&C's extended family think ?

I would hope for Connie and Chris that perhaps they may reconsider the hospice option, with the option of not withdrawing tubes immediately or within a few hours but agreeing to end of life care within 48 hours of arrival. Those hours are to be protected, the hospice is not to be identified and family can visit and make whatever memories they wish with Charlie.
The harsh proviso on this is that if there is resistance to end of life care taking place, Charlie is then removed back to GOSH and the Courts wishes are carried out.
It's heartbreaking and horrendous, but it's realistic.