Charlie Gard 14

[GabsAlot]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

Hello all. Checking in on my lunch break. Glad to see that you are all still here and behaving x

it just seem the judge is pandering to thm now

a week ago he dint want this prologned for charlies sake-now everytime he sets a date its put back

what if they turn up tomorrow an state they hav evidence but havnt got it yt do they yet again get more time?

where does it end

I think the judge is bending over backwards to give the family every chance to present their evidence, with the intention of making his ruling as water-tight as possible. In other words, try and make sure there are no grounds for further appeal and make this the final judgement.

Hi weewitch :)

Gabs I thought that too, didn't he originally say that end of July was way too long when C&C asked for that time frame? He said it wouldn't be fair to Charlie. Now it seems like it keeps getting extended, I just hope he isn't suffering, poor boy.

The Ashya King case is not as straightforward as that, I don't think. My son was tube fed following cancer surgery at the same time and the hospital, via the police, put out some easily verifiable misinformation about tube feeding. Iirc they were 'concerned' about the battery life of his machine. My son had the same. It's rechargeable. You can buy the charger. It has a long battery life (we took it camping for a week). it comes with a backpack and is designed to be portable. And you can manually tube feed via a bolus. I think the case contributed to people's suspicion of hospitals - including those, like me, who depend on and are grateful to the NHS.

The 6-8 window for treatment that was cited will also be based on a vanishingly small sample. Chemo is almost always delayed throughout treatment. Almost no child ever will have had treatment exactly following the protocol.

That being said, the rights of the child are not, in my view, overriden by the parents views. But we need to apply critical thinking to all sides of what we hear.

It seems awful to say this, but I hope the evidence from the latest round of scans, tests, investigations, whatever term one uses, and the discussions in the team meeting last week, will show conclusively that it's too late for any treatment to help Charlie, whatever it might do for other patients who are less seriously ill. Then the judge can say he won't accept any more new evidence.

Me too Dorothea

I don't see that it will make a difference that the court is now sitting at 2pm. I would still expect a decision on the 25th. The judge must think the afternoon will be sufficient for all the evidence to be heard: the written reports from the clinical meeting together with any subsequent tests are what he said would be decisive. There isn't anything new to adduce and it makes sense that DrH is able to be on hand from the start, so it may well simply be that, as previous posters have said.

id lik to believe hes doing it so it cant be brought back but why not just say this is the deadlin now anything else is not permissable

or this could go on for weeks/months

@unbuckle The Asha King case was a bit of a bizarre one to follow, still don't know what I think about it all. I don't think it's comparable to CG at all though, they suffered from two totally different things. I think how people compare the two is unhelpful at this point. AK wasn't on life support, CG is.

Issint the rally, outside the Royal courts, due to start soon. Led by the pastor.

Maybe the judge has now decided for some reason that he wants to open proceedings with Dr Hirano giving evidence.

I am really hoping the delayed start is so that can be a further private session beforehand and no shouting out/leaving courtroom during the hearing, but I am no legal expert so would accept I am probably thinking of some American movie rather than British legal procedure.

just his findings mary

judge said he cannot take newevidence from him till hed seen charlie

By the way, what evidence can Dr Hirano give?

Maybe just to say that, having now seen the latest information and heard all the other experts, he concurs with the opinion that his treatment wouldn't help Charlie. Just to shut down that argument. That's if he is going to give evidence.

Maybe the judge wants Dr Hirano to confirm his stance via video link rather than just relying on the notes of the meeting? This would then stop any accusations of the legal team twisting his words.

I think they will delay the final date until after his birthday. It's only ten days after the court case.

Would that be in Charlie's best interests?

I wouldn't think a delay in moving to palliative care would be the way anyone would think it wise to go, after what happened with the last delay.

didn't (the judge) originally say that end of July was way too long when C&C asked for that time frame? He said it wouldn't be fair to Charlie

Yes, he did

We're now also nearly two weeks past the judge's deadline to see this claimed "new evidence"and still there's talk about further delay which some parties will certainly do everything they can to encourage

With regret, I believe the supposedly overriding principle of putting Charlie before all else was left behind a long time ago

I doubt the decision will be delayed. The judge has been very clear about when he aims to deliver his judgement. Joshua Rosenberg has given the opinion that the parents' barrister is being given more time to put together evidence but it could also be that there is a need for a further meeting of all barristers in the morning to provide the same information to all parties.