Charlie Gard 14

[GabsAlot]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

'We need hope

In the nicest possible way, this is not about you, or me, or anyone on this thread. It is about what is best for a dying child. And for future dying children.

I have been receiving emails from this group, connected to the pastor, ever since they added my name to their petition without my consent. But that's a long story which has been covered on these threads.
Thought others might be interested in seeing it. I really hope C&C don't get involved and can spend some time with Charlie.

I spoke with Charlie Gard’s Aunt Lara late last night. She informed me that it was in the best interest of Charlie and his parents if we moved the planned rally and vigil farther away from Great Ormond Street Hospital.
We agreed to move the location of the rally and vigil to outside of the Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London, WC2A 2LL. The rally is still scheduled for 3:00 p.m.
So far, 48 people have responded that they will attend.
For more information, please continue reading below. I hope that you can make it!
Can you join me this Sunday at our rally for Charlie Gard?
We've just received news that on Monday, 24 July, the High Court of England will continue its hearing to decide if Charlie "lives or dies."
Judge Francis is expected to make his decision no later than Tuesday, 25 July.
In response to this, CitizenGO is joining our friends at Americans United for Life, the Christian Defense Coalition, and others, in London to rally for Charlie this Sunday, 23 July, at 3:00 p.m. There will also be a time of prayer.
We will organize directly outside of the Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London, WC2A 2LL
I have created a Facebook event, where you can RSVP for the rally and invite your friends:

It definitely looks as if there won't be a decision made on Tuesday

This is getting very close to C's birthday

Well am annoyed yet again at yet another delay. When is the judge going to put his foot down? Unless he's trying to make sure there is no room for repeated appeals? Thought judge said he wanted all new evidence in before Monday?

I don't know if this has already been posted, but according to last Friday's Guardian, Last week, Michio Hirano ... told the court that the previous scan showed “no evidence” of irreversible brain damage

This seems very odd; I realise scans have since been re-done, but didn't GOSH say that earlier ones did suggest irreversible damage? Granted there'll often be some difference in professional opinions, but this seems a bit extreme; I've no doubt GOSH are perfectly capable of reading a scan so I can't help wondering why Hirano would say something like this?

There is no need to criticise the parents' behaviour here - their actions are seen in public and speak for themselves.

The most abhorrent hypocrisy as I see it comes from the US, where parents' rights over their children may apply but of course not in most cases of unborn children. And the "pro-life" argument in a country where on average 10 children aged 18 or under die EVERY DAY from gunshot wounds.

So there's meant to be some kind of rally today?

What do they actually think this is going to achieve?

I wouldn't be surprised if C&C were actually sick of the CA themselves.

In the two posts that Chris put up on CA I don't recall him thanking them for their support or saying anything that showed he cared about their blue hearts and thunderclaps.

To be honest, if I had a dying child and there was a FB group of people repeatedly saying they loved my child and were making air freshners and car stickers in his name I think I'd be really pissed off.

I suppose it's difficult though for C&C to speak out against CA seeing as it's run by family and due to how much money it's raised.

Apologies, I meant aged 19 or under.

Writer-men's rights activists ( F4J being one example)

Well I did say originally that it would be delayed because if looming birthday not that will make a difference to poor Charlie as he won't be aware if what is happening, but maybe give some memories for parents if original order upheld. But yet again what about Charlie in all of this?

Last week, Michio Hirano ... told the court that the previous scan showed “no evidence” of irreversible brain damage....

And I think this is what is the main spark behind CA's anger.

It's an issue that plays on my mind too, it doesn't make sense. I hope things will be clarified during the Trial.

Chris Gard's sister Laura runs the CA Facebook group, so presumably Chris could ask her to delete/moderate/change it.

MRA is often used on MN to mean Male Rape Apologist.

Friendly, I tend to agree with you that in a discussion on the use and abuse of social media, it's useful to have examples to refer to. But I can see the opposite pov, too : that it might look as if tweets and fb posts were being copied for the purpose of 'pointing and laughing', even if that wasn't the intention.

It's a fine line; obviously Chris Gard"s recent statements are a news story and as such are intended to be circulated.

I don't understand the lawyers' arguments about the MRI and breach of confidentiality; the actual MRI wasn't made public, only the fact of its existence, which could be deduced anyway. Whereas the Gard side has publicised an actual MRI from earlier this year.

Back to the court case, I thought that more time was asked for, in order to produce new evidence too.

The judge must be getting very pissed off, I would think; he has repeatedly asked for all the new evidence to be submitted, yet it still seems to be trickling out in dribs and drabs.

Is this new child they have discovered in the UK? If so, GOSH presumably already know of him/her and have concluded that whatever treatment s/he is receiving is unsuitable for Charlie.

I'd hazard a guess that not many people will turn up to the protest after last nights news, despite how many have RSVP'd.

The Pro life angle really confuses me.

Charlie Gard. He must live at all costs. His parents should have absolute control over him and must make all decisions relating to him living or dying. The state has no role.

Unborn baby. Must live at all costs. The parents should have no say and the state must pass legislation to make any decision a parent may make about ending his life illegal.

How do those two approaches marry up?

i thought he said he couldnt commnt on th brain damage and that somone else needed to look at th scans to confirm?

Last week, Michio Hirano ... told the court that the previous scan showed “no evidence” of irreversible brain damage....

Wasn't that followed by the discussion of the different types of brain damage, and what would show in different types of scan? It's selective quoting.

Back in April, Dr Hirano agreed that there was evidence of serious brain damage.

0nline thanks for that link, I can really relate to that. I posted earlier about confirmation bias and how uncomfortable it can be reading or hearing something that totally conflicts with beliefs that you hold very strongly and thinking 'Actually, they've got a point'. It's really interesting to see how the brain perceives it in exactly the same way as a physical threat.
Wrt David Cameron having a disabled child: there were threads during the 2015 election which spoke about DC using his son's death to shut down any debate about the way his government had treated disabled people and disabled children in particular.
MNHQ's initial stance was that these discussions were absolutely beyond the pale and to delete them.
However, they did change their view and allowed people (including me) to post opinions saying that nobody believed that DC didn't love Ivan or genuinely mourn for him but that believing that was not incompatible with believing that he could use Ivan's death for political expediency.

Grief on one of the previous threads there was a quote from the Featuresworld spokeswoman saying that (and I paraphrase) C&C had been hijacked by some other people against her advice and she was worried about them. Looks Iike she's back advising them now.

He said himself last week he isn't a nuerologist though so I doubt he would be the best person to interpret the scans in detail.