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Apologising for the slave trade

366 replies

Pennies · 25/03/2007 09:26

Today marks the 200th anniversary of the slave trade and there have been calls recently for there to be a formal apology from Tony Blair and / or the Queen.

Will it make any difference?

My personal opinion is that you can't apologise for someone else's actions - it would be a bit like me apologising for Tony Blair's sanctioning of the war in Iraq (and I have never voted for him so I haven't even approvied those actions vicariously IYSWIM). It would be an empty apology, wouldn't it?

I can't see that it would ever change anything, or am I missing something.

OP posts:
DominiConnor · 27/03/2007 16:01

What blatent "racism" yentil. ?
Or by racism do you mean "not agreeing with you".

I see no posting that justifies slavery, not one. No one said that racism would not have been possible without African collusion, either.
Though of course it would have been much harder without it.

A "pilgrimage" to Africa, good grief....
Actually, I'm confused about the logic you apply to your ancestors. You state that your links to your ancestry was lost and also othat you know where your ancestors were held. There were many places where slaves were held.
I am entertained by the notion that your parents were "tricked", WI was dirt poor at that point in time. I'm also amused to read of how you think "our war" was nothing to do with you. On your planet is Hitler remembered as a friend to black people ?

As for your indentity crisis, this seems more like a personal issue that requires medication and counselling, not political solutions.
I have no idea of who my maternal grandmother & grandfather were, and beyond that no idea about my ancestry. The Brits did loads of shit to us as well. We have rumours, of course, but I get by, and know exactly who I am. You can program Outlook to remind you if you forget ...

And oh dear you want competitive victimhood. Load of Irish people died in famines, and it caused a displacement of smaller but comparable to slavery, but as a vastly higher % of the population. And before you ask yes, some Irish people were responsible for that mess as well.
I specifically said I didn't want an apology.

As for the the freedoms of western countries being built upon the destruction of your race, is the sort of hysterical nonsense that undermines your cause entirely.
Freedom is not a function of wealth, but social organisation. Britain was a free country when it had wealth that makes the average African country look rich.

As it happens it was not "all built by us". That's not true of Britain, and given you are fantasising about the economic history of the entire western world perhaps you could explain how rich, western countries like Germany or Sweden were built upon black slavery ?
As for changing your hair and skin, I would point out that western women do this to such a great extent that cosmetics are a very big industry.

I perhaps see the root of your emoting.
You talk of black men preferring white women. That's not something I've noticed as a major trend, but perhaps you've some personal issues on that front ?

king and self hate is the consequence of generations of abuse. Some of us are now coming out of the darkness and seeing the light. My husband and I have an overwhelming sense of duty and responsiblity to show our daughter that contrary to the negativity surrounding your beauty and race you are a queen, and the world can be your oyster too. In the face of adversity we will get stronger.

I am more than a little worried about you telling your daughter she is a "queen". Our black god-daughter gets none of that bollocks at all. She doesn't think she has an inherited right to anything, but has been shown that intelligence and effort can make her life better.
A "queen" is going to have real problems when she hits the real world.
Try to be objective. No seriously go on try.
If I as a white bloke wrote that my sons were told they were kings with some right to great stuff, wouldn't you dismiss this as the ravings of a right wing moron ?
So what's the difference ?

Actually I wish that African leaders did "ape" white ones. Can't think of a single current black ruler who would last 15 minutes in a European state before we rose up and hung the bastard. Compared to Mbeki, Muagabe, Gadaffi et al Bush & Blair are Mandela and Gandhi.

As for your descendants marrying my children, I find that amusing as well. Your daughter is being fed fantasy as fact by her parents, and a deluded pretentious view of the world that serves her badly.
She might get to serve my sons in a supermarket, but marry ?
No.

ruty · 27/03/2007 16:02

er, not the most helpful comment right now CS 1573.

yentil · 27/03/2007 16:06

kathy I appreciate your thinking, but my need to find a genetic link to my ancestors is the tip of the iceberg. My genotype is so 'mixed up' anyway beacuse I am a decendent of slavery / decendent of rape. However, a sense of belonging, acknowledgement that there are inherent problems in our society due to legacy of slavery, my children being able to learn about where they come from at school just as white people's children can, these things would make a difference. It is clearly deomnstrated to us on a day to day basis that we DO NOT have the right to be here and we DO NOT belong here.

I am a doctor with qualifications coming out of my arse in order to do a job that my white counterparts with half of my qualifications and experience have offered to them on a plate. Contray to these posts, I do not have a chip on my shoulder, its just our reality.

paulaplumpbottom · 27/03/2007 16:06

YellowRose I think you misunderstood my post, I agree with you that most Americans are clueless about current world afffairs. All I was saying was that most Americans have no problems with World History or Geography.

CS1753 · 27/03/2007 16:12

Well I just don't get it. I have researched the subject somewhat (mainly as I have a mixed race DS) - not as in-depth as I should have. I don't want him to grow up thinking he came into the world a victim because of his heritage or not try anything because his genetic material dictates his actions. Everyone this day and age suffers some form of discrimination - single parent, Genetics, age, disabled.

I would rather time and energy is focused on stamping out actual slavery now than something that happened 200 years ago.

PeachyClair · 27/03/2007 16:14

What would you like me to acknowledge precisely? Sorry, I did read your post with intrerest honestly, If you look elsewhere on MN you might understand why brain not in order but anyway.

Personally, I would like to apologise to anyone who was affected by salvery in any way and without reserve. I can do it here, I do not have enough of a voice to do it with any effect publicly. Should your daughter marry my sons, i will celebrate with joy in my heart. I agree the English side of my heritage has failed your poelpe totally, and I do and will cntinue to fight for equality where I can, in every way I can. I always have done however, I am proactive in this as you would see on toher slavery threads on MN.

I raise my children to accept all people as equally worthwhile and valid.

Please, what mroe could I do? I would genuinely like to know. I think about my vote, and racism is one issue amongst many I take into account. When volunteers at my old wprkplace refused to work with european migrants, I had them trained by Amnesty (dsod all difference it amde but you can only try), and I am a member of Amnesty. Most people I know abhor racism (I accept few do not ). When I chose my ethics reaserach I chose racism. I am entering teaching partly because I want to teach tolerance. And yet I still read that I am not doing enough (yes I know that you don't mean me as an individual, but imo MN posts are to be interpreted in the light of my life). What should I be doing please? Seriosuly. I don't know. What more is there a busy mum of 3 can honestly do?

FWIW I would disagree with your statement that no other race has suffered- the holocaust, for example. I know little about the potato famine, but what I do know leaves me horrified. Anything that harms people is wrong. I don't believe once you get to deatyh etc you can have levels of wrong, there is just fundamentally that- wrong.

yentil · 27/03/2007 16:14

DC, it must burn you that I have a right to even post on here. you're views are full of hatred of black poeple and you've obviously wormed your way into some poor black families life. God-parent, what a joke. reminds me of when the slave raiders used to tempt africans to their ships with promise of decent and fair trade for goods then capture them. what plans have you for this african that you've snared

CS####, you need to read before you write.

nothing further to say

PeachyClair · 27/03/2007 16:15

Sorry yentil that was for you. And r=it reads angry- I'm not at all, a little shaken by events elsewhere by unrelated to you!

expatinscotland · 27/03/2007 16:17

'I am a doctor with qualifications coming out of my arse in order to do a job that my white counterparts with half of my qualifications and experience have offered to them on a plate. Contray to these posts, I do not have a chip on my shoulder, its just our reality. '

Reality that people get handed jobs on a plate?

Sorry, but I work in academia and I've yet to see that happen.

I'm not black. I'm not white, either.

But I agree with CS in her last sentence of her last post.

PeachyClair · 27/03/2007 16:19

You know

what I love about MN, amongst other things is the way bobody has a colour here. We are all just a screen. It is at this level that bonds are made and the world improved, surely?

KathyMCMLXXII · 27/03/2007 16:19

Yentil, this is a genuine question, please don't take it the wrong way....

From what you said about being a descendant of rape I am assuming you are descended from both slaves and slave-owners. If this is the case, why do you seem to only identify with the African part of your heritage? Surely you have British ancestry as well?

By the way, I don't think there is anyone on this thread who would not agree that the slave trade was an utter abomination and a crime against humanity. People have not felt it necessary to state this here because it is taken as read.

sunnywong · 27/03/2007 16:21

yes, there does seem to be an element of selective ancestory identification, but is that pointedly subjective or unrelentlessly objective, I can see both sides

PeachyClair · 27/03/2007 16:23

Well, I wouldnt want to identify myself with a rapist either- I can see her aspect if that is what she is using as a basis.

yentil · 27/03/2007 16:24

one thing further; peachy... I understand from what you've written that you try to lead an honest decent life, but i still detect a sense of oh shut up and get on with it. my point is that its not that simple and there are inherent problems in our society due to the enslavement of black poeple that continue today and effect us all and an acknowledgement of those things shold be the first and foremost action of anyone who wants to make a difference.

This is the opnion of one black women on mumsnet. take from it what you will. I have learn't nothing today. posts like those from DC are of no surprise to me, I meet people like that everyday. I intend for my children to be prepared for for the likes of DC too. At the same time I am hope to nuture all those things you have mentioned, forgiving, tolerance, open-mindedness and awareness, so that my children can live a rich life and not miss out on the rich friendships and relationships to be had with people from all backgrounds.

Promise thats it

ruty · 27/03/2007 16:25

unrelentlessly?
Sorry, really cannot contribute usefully to this thread, following it but all very depressing reading.

CS1753 · 27/03/2007 16:25

Yentil - sorry please could you point me to the read before i write bit, as you are aware this thresd is very long and I will obviously have missed some bits.

Just another puzzle for me is that on this thread everything seems to be referred to 'black' and 'White'. Surely this, though being the most notorious, is inaccurate as it is more a 'people with power' and 'exploited people' situation.

ruty · 27/03/2007 16:26

'but i still detect a sense of oh shut up and get on with it.' From Peachy's post? I really cannot agree with that yentil.

yentil · 27/03/2007 16:28

sorry i mean't kathy

KathyMCMLXXII · 27/03/2007 16:29

Eh?
I don't see how you've got that from the few sentences of my posts, I really don't.

suejonez · 27/03/2007 16:30

Sorry - I'm not sure that this comment is particulalry relevant to slavery but your view "My people still fight each other over who's skin is lighter, or hair straighter" and that it is a legacy of the slave trade is not necessarily the case, many races who were never enslaved eg Chinese and Japanese, value white skins, perhaps indicating peasant working in fields vs high born and being shaded. Its probably perpetuated today by the Hollywood "ideal" which tends to be thin and white.

Regretting the trade is surely enough - I do regret that slavery ever existed and contributed to this country's finances in any way but don't feel as the offspring of generations of working class miners that an apology from me would be particularly relevant. What would it achieve? Maybe there are people who would feel better if I apologised for the slave trade and I would happily do it if it made a differenc etc anyone but it would be a bit pointless - just a sop, which is surely just patronising?

I find it really sad yentil that you feel you don't belong in your own country. But contrary to DC I do think there is every need to raise your daughter to beleive that she can do anything she wants to do. My parents and grandparents raised me that way and as a result I have a university education (first in our family) a professional qualification and a good job. All chidlren should be raised to beleive this because in this day and age it should be true - anyone should be able to acheive anythign they have the ability/talent for.

PeachyClair · 27/03/2007 16:31

No there is no sense of that at all. I did explain that I was aware it was not coming out right-( I have spent the afternoon at a meeting regarding my sn 3 yr old) so I did hope you would read it with that in mind.

When I qualify, I will teach about slavery. I view it as essential that all children are educated, in part so we can use it as a way to move forwards. But then I have reached a point where I genuinely can no longer see what more I can do?

Under no circumstances do i think poeple should just shut up and get on with it. I do think sometimes we need to adjust our focus to the future- its the only thing that has gotten me through some bad times. That has to take account of the past surely, but also I think its the healthiest thing for all.

PeachyClair · 27/03/2007 16:33

Just an aside, did you know the Indian word Brahmin- the higest Caste- dates abck to pre- Aryan India and means ligt skinned?

Just a thought.

drosophila · 27/03/2007 16:33

On the qualification thing DP's father trained as a barrister in the 50's. He also won a scholarship to Oxford or Cambridge (can't remember which) from Trinidad but didn't take it as he contracted TB. A seriously academic man as you can imagine and what did he end up working as - clerical post in BT.

yentil · 27/03/2007 16:36

sorry re-read. defiently mean't peach...; thats what i took from it.
Mumsnet is open for misinterpretation, but thats what i took from Peachy's message.

also CS### 'people with power' were white and exploited were black?????

wants wrong with mentioning colour.

and many previous posts are undeniably trying to detract from the impact of the slave 'raid' by not mentioning it in its own right and fighting for comparison. so its not taken as read that it was abominable!

and why would i not want to find my african roots. i look african. if i turned up on the average white doorstep with a geneology document claiming to be part of you i would be run out of town

drosophila · 27/03/2007 16:36

Yentil can you describe what you think DC is about. I find him a bit of an enigma myself and find myself rereading what he has written asking myself did I just read that right.

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