Apologising for the slave trade

[Pennies]

Today marks the 200th anniversary of the slave trade and there have been calls recently for there to be a formal apology from Tony Blair and / or the Queen.

Will it make any difference?

My personal opinion is that you can't apologise for someone else's actions - it would be a bit like me apologising for Tony Blair's sanctioning of the war in Iraq (and I have never voted for him so I haven't even approvied those actions vicariously IYSWIM). It would be an empty apology, wouldn't it?

I can't see that it would ever change anything, or am I missing something.

You are not responsible for your bosses decision if you can in no way influence it.

I can in no way influence what happened 150 years ago - I refuse to admit guilt.

Nobody in this country can influence what happened 150 years ago - why should guilt hang over us as a nation for something we can do nothing about?

Are the newborn babies in this country guilty too? They are as capable as I am of changing what happened.

Well exactly Pennies, that diddn't even register with me. Totally futile pr exercise, as will this be.

Carmenere - I am Irish/Glaswgian..(mother from Mayo).

Am a bit surprised by the level of defensiveness going on here. No-one is being attacked at all.

Agree with Pann.

There has to be an acknowledgement of what was done including an admission of a nations' culpability before healing can really begin.

If it was such an empty meaningless gesture, then TB would have done it ages ago...the fact is that it does open the door to reparations.

If I'm not mistaken, the NZ govt apologised to the Maoris...and reparations are an ongoing issue.

Just because something happened a long time ago, doesn't mean that we can all just 'lalala, nothing to do with me' and move on. the fact is that we are all beneficiaries of that trade in human beings, Britain as we know it was in part built on it.

The African tribes that traded is absolutely irrelevant...Does the collaboration of Italy make Nazi Germany not count? It is a nonsensical argument.

I'm glad that the Anglican church has apologised. We are still living with so many of the terrible consequences of the slave trade, not least the fact that many if not most West Indian black people are mixed race as a direct consequence of terrible exploitation by their owners.

Apology is both appropriate and necessary and will not happen because of the fear of monetary consequence (which there should be...the descendence of slaves should be paid reparation by the British nation, and we as citizens should fund it through our taxes).

christ sorry, descendants!!!

blimey that was a terrible sp mistake even for me±

I'm glad someone's for the apology - this was getting somewhat one dimensional!

Why would money solve anything Sophable? Surely that money would be better spent on educating our children about the effects of the historical slave trade and also it's presence in the modern world. History is worthless if nothing is learnt from it. Money teaches nothing.

I agree that financial reparations should be paid - but out of the crown jewels, not out of the taxes.

I doubt it would be any more than a gesture, but i think it would be good if the apology COST the nation something...

i'm not sure you're wrong there colditz! get queenie to pay

colditz, I am confused. I thought that you feel there's no current responsibility for this. How come you also agree with compensation then?

For me at least, the money isn't the crucial bit. It will be true that for most white folks they have v. little understanding of the legacy in this country of slavery, as we are not 'directed' to be aware of it from schools or anywhere else. It wouldn't be meaningless (though anything from TB IS suspect, yes) if it triggered peeps into being curious as to why/how we still work in stereo-types of black folk which are directly based in he incidence of slavery.

Right. Def. offski.

But let's be realistic, is there anyone who really listens to Tony Blair, then changes their world view because of his moral leadership ?

Would they have done this if John Major had made the apology ? Thatcher ? Callaghan ?

A reasonably educated person knows about the slave trade and has some idea how awful it was.

There is no "slavery denial" in Britain.

But let's abandon the bollocks of the "legacy", of slavery. There is no group anywhere that hasn't been crapped upon big time by another.

The "legacy" shit is an excuse for all sorts of screwup and bad behaviour. Some black people use "legacy" as an excuse for doping themselves senseless with drugs and stabbing people. The government uses "legacy" as an excuse for not bothering to educate black kids properly, and racist thugs use it as as "evidence" that black people are inferior.
African countries, and those who would excuse the ghastly behaviour of the likes of Mbeki and Mugabe use it as an excuse.

Yesterday we even had publicity stunts by various Christian groups, trying to take credit for the abolition of slavery.

DC - you are sooooo wrong. There is MASSIVE denial in this country, and you are assisting it by denying it!!

We got rich by going round the world stealing off other people, and often killing them in the process. Most countries in Africa, Ireland, the Asian sub-continent etc. We are historically a bunch of 'teefs' and slayers. A lot of problems that you point to have their genesis in discrimination that was required to 'justify' slavery.

I totally disagree with the doctrine of collective responsibility, it's a terribly dangerous notion.

And has led to terrible atrocities. Rwanda, Pol Pot, the Cultural Revolution, the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide - practically any modern massacre you care to think about has the idea of the collective responsibility of its victims behind it.

And as for saying that we benefitted from slavery - who the hell is we?

Britain as a country certainly did, capitalism is built on slavery and that should be acknowledged and studied at school, but reparations - how can they be paid justly? Who should pay them? And to whom?

Not sure why i should apologise for something I havn't done?

and if we are talking about the country as a whole - well the UK engaged in the slave trade for a limited period of time - there are countries in africa and elsehwere who still engage in slavery.

I also come from Hull and everyone here (because of wilberforce for those who don't know) is REALLY puzzled as to why we should be apologising?

to those who think there is historic or collective guilt - how on earth do you rationalise this?

Would you then suggest that my DS an innocent, sweet, loving 2 yr old should grow up to be insulted, embarressed, harrassed, punished, made to apologise etc etc for things that his grandparents did before he was even born?

Actually I want an apology, I reckong my family was celtic orginally so I want anyone who is descended from the saxons, normans, Danes etc etc to give a national apology because obviuosly Mr John at the papershop who is of norman descent is to blame for the actions of people he didn't ever know and I'm so hung up about things which happened to my ancestors I can't get on with my life until there is an empty public apology.

Oh yeah, I forgot until then I will keep on with my wars, raping of children, etc etc because I can't hlep myself its all down to things which happened in history.

Pann, what stereotypes of black people do you think 'we' work in?
And who is this 'we' you are referring to? Do you mean ALL white people? white britains? White middle class women? Mums?

Ah, this is the artsgrad use of the word "denial" as in "not agreeing with my exact viewpoint".
Outside the minds of the dumber end of Guardian readers, no one denies the existence of slavery, or claims that shippping slaves was an early form of package holiday.
They see how much fun those who use the term "holocaust denier" have, and want some for themselves.

Secondly, the British jumpstarted their economy by boring shit like agricultural innovation.
There was theft, but the reason Britain went up was they'd worked out that stealing from the Spanish, Portuguese and other imperialists was more profitable.

A country can't impose your will by force, unless first it has a decent amount of wealth. Fighting at huge distances is very expensive, but that's these right wing "numbers" things that "deniers" use so much.

What you've failed to understand big time is that there was no 'justification' made for slavery. People just did it. The slave trade in England used it's own people first, but when they got too expensive outsourced the supply to cheaper regions, a pattern we see in a different form today.

Also what we haven't seen much of on the media is how exactly a ship with a few dozen men can sail into an African port and make off with a few hundred slaves by force of arms.
Of course they didn't. Most slaves were delivered by fellow Africans.

I agree with Pann there is denial. Why has Roots never been repeated on British TV. Why were there questions in the House of Commons at the time of it's release?

How often do you hear slavery talked about in history lessons. Were you taught about it in school?

DC you really are talking out of your arse if you think there is no legacy from the slave trade. Fuck apologising I'd settle fro some education.

Have you ever heard a black person being asked 'how come you have a scottish surname?' and then the reply 'because that was the surname of the slave owners' followed by deathly silence. DENIAL DENIAL

I think reparations should be paid in the form of putting real effort and money into re addressing the existing ineqaulities that exist in this country today between opportunities for balck and white children, which in some way will be a legacy of the slave trade.

Particuarly focusing on black children and young people.

To me the apologise or not debate is pretty meaningless. it changes nothing.

I'm sure TB and most right minded people are very 'sorry' the slave trade happende, but how responsible they/we can be is impossible to quantify.

What we are responsible for is the ongoing legacy and the ineqaulites, and as MB said the slave trade which still exists.

sunnyjim - it would be utterly tasteless to list streo-types entertained by white folk that are based in slavery, so I will decline your invitation to.

From this thread, it appears to depend on your point of view on whether an apology should be extended. Lots of "empty, meaningless" excuses are made, some on here. They are just not up to scratch. To drag the finer feelings of your ds into this is just absurd.

"Ah, this is the artsgrad use of the word "denial" as in "not agreeing with my exact viewpoint".

Oh DC!! Move on.

DC it's not true that no justification was made for slavery. Racism was invented to justify slavery. Pretending that the African people were less human, was the only way their treatment could be defended.

I think 'full acknowledgement' is perhaps more apt than 'apology' - and fll ackowledgement means understanding just how very much britian accumultaed as a result of the slave trade -the wealth that pump-started the industrial revolution and the empire.

Full acknowledgement should also take account of the fact that it is well documented, and felt, by black caribban families, that enslavement has had effects which, espcially in the face of continued racism, have not been repaied. loss of male confidence as family providers, loss of family units etc etc. See Kwame Kwei-Armah in today's observer for a little bit of that.

We can't be meaningful about learning from things like the slave trade, and concentrate on stopping contemporary versions, unless we have fully acknowledged what it was and what it did.

And it wasn't the abolition of slavery 200 years ago - that took another 30 years. it was the official abolition of the trading of enslaved people from Africa. Which continued illicitly under the guise of whaling expeditions.

As for 'well Africans sold people' - then let that be dealt with by African countries and communities - it is no 'excuse' for Europeans, and a very immature and unuseful way to deal with anything, imo!

one of the many typos below should read "repaired" - don't want it interpreted as 'repaid'.

DC - there are plenty of ways of discussing slavery that can contribute to young black people being strong for a different future - it doesn't have to be about seeing themselves as victims. That's a bit simplistic.