Apologising for the slave trade

[Pennies]

Today marks the 200th anniversary of the slave trade and there have been calls recently for there to be a formal apology from Tony Blair and / or the Queen.

Will it make any difference?

My personal opinion is that you can't apologise for someone else's actions - it would be a bit like me apologising for Tony Blair's sanctioning of the war in Iraq (and I have never voted for him so I haven't even approvied those actions vicariously IYSWIM). It would be an empty apology, wouldn't it?

I can't see that it would ever change anything, or am I missing something.

I suppose it depends on what you are apologising for and how it is worded. Also, should not all others involved in the slave trade apologise too, including those in Africa who sold neighbouring tribesmen to the slavers? It's all very complicated and I'm not certain what purpose an apology would serve. Who would you be making the apology to?

It wouldn't make any difference....an empty apology....whats that all about? Maybe a publicity stunt..

This has made me come over all Daily Mail

Did anyone read the female all party peer, who's name began with L - sorry I didn't save the page, on this topic.?
There were a couple of lines on how it is problematic for Black people to discuss African involvement and the remainder of the dozen or so paragraphs on how awful Europeans were.

So I did some research and balanced it with this

Before anyone yells "racist" at me, I am merely wishing to see all the assembled facts as abhorrent and cruel as it was, it was a trade and not the Slave raid. I sincerely apologise for my ancestors' part in it - part of my family come from Briston so they are implicated in some way. But I would like to see this issue represented in all its dimensions.

I meant the all party peer's article in the Guardian this week

Well I think he's apologising to the president of Ghana.

Interesting point re. the selling of slaves Freckle & Suzywong. I'm not condoning it in anyway but there was definitely a suppply and demand element in many cases.

sunnywong, sorry.

200 years down the line the people do did it cannoy be located and the people who initially suffered are all dead. This is largly meaningless.

Far better to spent the time, energy and money stopping slavery now and also addressing the inequalities that still exsist between the races in the UK.

Asking for an appology is about as meaningful as my demanding that the French appologise for Napoleon's plans to invade the UK.

Reals problems that still exsist today need real solutions, not this empty appology.

Um, I don't think we as a nation should apologise, for the reason being that none of the peole alive in britain today had anything to do with the slave trade their whole lives!

Or have I got my historical facts muddled? I thought all of slavery ended June 19th, 1865, or thereabouts, but perhaps it was 1997, when the Almighty TB came to Ultimate Power?

oh yes, not disputing the supply and demand element whatsoever, or the larger wheels within wheels aspect of carving up Africa and dividing and conquering or tapping in to a continental tradition and putting it on the global market place. No denial at all.

I wish I could find the article that got my dander up. I'll have a look in my quest to be balanced

and you can call me what you like, sweetheart.

have there actually been calls then? Calls from who?

cal;ls from TBs media manager, I suspect

If he does this, what he will say is "I apologise blahdeblah"

But what he will mean is

"LOOK AT MEEEEE! i'M BEING FABULOUS! LOOK AT MY EMPATHETIC FACE!!!"

And surely it's time for an apology to the Irish nation for 700 years of oppression and the rape of their country's resources and the famine yada, yada, yada.......

It wouldn't make any difference and it is my opinion that whilst it is vitally important to mark the fact that something as heinous as the slave trade existed that apologising for it is futile.

As my(English) dp often says, the ruling classes were treating his ancestors like shit too. Our generation is not responsible for the actions of the previous ones, all we can do is make sure it never happens again.

agree with the sentiment so far, but there are many people around now still affected by the slave trade - for example, lots of people with inherited money which accumulated in their families due to the slave trade, a family home which wouldn't be there otherwise, and on the other hand those whose families were destroyed generations ago, who had to make a new start in a new country. i'm not an historian, know very little about history, in fact, but i think that these sort of events affect generations for hundreds of years

I don't think it's an empty gesture at all. There is such a thing as a "collective guilt" and responsibility for lots of things. And we all in this country still benefit in terms of wealth from the slave trade, as it helped to consolidate this country as an economically pre-eminent force.

I think we do have a 'moral' requirement to apologise, but I am suspecting that to make one implies a legal accountability, and so eligible for paying compensation. So TB wou;d not go so far, without tight legal opinion.

There isn't Pann!

Would you feel guilty for a decision your boss made?

Collective guilt

Collective guilt is the idea that a collection of humans or a human institution can bear guilt above and beyond the guilt of particular members. Collective guilt is regarded by some as impossible because it seems to presuppose that collections of humans can have traits, such as intentions and knowledge, that strictly speaking are claimed to be truly possessed only by individuals.[citation needed] However, there are those who consider such judgements on collective guilt to be overly reductionistic and accept the existence of collective guilt, collective responsibility, etc.[citation needed] Humans seem to have a natural tendency to attribute collective guilt, usually with tragic results. History is filled with examples of a wronged man who tried to avenge himself, not on the person who has wronged him, but on other members of the wrong-doer's family, or ethnic group, or religion, or nation, or tribe, or army. Likewise collective punishment is often practiced in different settings, including schools (punishing a whole class for the actions of a single unknown pupil) and, more transcendentally, in situation of war, economic sanctions, etc, presupposing the existence of collective guilt. Terrorism is commonly rationalized by its practitioners on ideas of collective guilt and responsibility. Many nations have laws holding corporations, but not the individual decision-makers within them, responsible for certain kinds of acts. For example, in the United States corporations can be fined for violating pollution laws, but the individuals who actually ordered and directed the polluting activity may not themselves be regarded as having broken any laws, since they act as corporate officers on behalf of the shareholders. This is generally known as the "corporate veil".

A recent occasion is the view of Serbs as generally guilty for the Yugoslav conflicts, most notably the Kosovo war, on which occasion the chief UN mediator in the midst of negotiations between Belgrade and Pristina noted that Serbs are guilty for the conflicts in Kosovo, and that Serbia should pay it by losing Kosovo.

FROM WIKIPEDIA

There is colditz!!

Boss' decision? IT depends on what it is. As a colleague I am in part responsible for his conduct to the consumer/service user, yes, and have been lots of times in the past.

Agree with Colditz - yes it was wrong and terrible but we should be focussing on today and apologising now won't mean much if we don't help eradicate current slavery, which a lot of people don't realise still exists.
There are so many things in history people could apologise for but don't - by all means acknowledge what happened and teach it in schools etc but spend more time working for a better future to stop things like slavery, inequality etc.
Certainly an apology by the Queen or Tony Blair would seem a bit vague and meaningless but good if they talked about it and good to remember what happened certainly.

Going further, should modern Italians apologise for the complete rate and enslavement of most of the rest of Europe by the Romans?

If there is to be a meaningful discussion of this issue, then should there not be a roll-call of all those involved in slavery throughout time, or is it only the enslavement of people from Africa which counts?

As MB says, there is slavery rife within this country at the moment - and many other countries. There have always been slaves and perhaps our energies today should be directed towards making the abolition of slavery a fact rather than a date to be marked on our calendars with sackcloth and ashes.

To whom would the money be paid exactly?

There was a real bun fight about this on five live last night, just as I was trying to get to sleep .....

exactamondo Freckle!

Sorry, that should read rape, not rate.

Pann, I don't feel any underlying guilt whatsoever as my ancestors were being shat upon during times of slavery too, as were yours, unless you are from the upper echelons of British society.

Now theres a thought, maybe the house of lords could apologise, at least it would be in the right ball-park............................

But many people in Africa benefitted from the slave trade too. Are they not accountable?

What is so wrong with this??

Saying "we need to focus on today's problems" are being a bit short-sighted, AND, why not apologise AND focus on today's problems. No reason why both can't be done!!

Will duck out of this thread. Could consume my entire day if I let it.

Carmenare - TB apologised for the potato 'famine' a few years back didn't he? What difference did that ever make.

Also the Queen has said sorry for the mistreatment of the Maouris (spelt?). Again I'm sure not much has changed for that either.

Surely the only effect is a self serving PR coup?

Collective guilt? Not buying that at all. Isn't that just the cuplpable ones not taking responsibility for their misdemeanours?