Apologising for the slave trade

[Pennies]

Today marks the 200th anniversary of the slave trade and there have been calls recently for there to be a formal apology from Tony Blair and / or the Queen.

Will it make any difference?

My personal opinion is that you can't apologise for someone else's actions - it would be a bit like me apologising for Tony Blair's sanctioning of the war in Iraq (and I have never voted for him so I haven't even approvied those actions vicariously IYSWIM). It would be an empty apology, wouldn't it?

I can't see that it would ever change anything, or am I missing something.

I guess if it brings people some sense of peace, then fair play.

But tbh, I feel quite sorry for those who do, because man, what an expense of energy and anger.

It's hard enough to make peace with oneself as it is.

I, too, am a mix of heritages, most Hispanic people in the Americas are.

Am I a descendant of rape? Possibly. I can't verify that all the way back and wouldn't want to.

And it's not part of who I am now.

'expat - if, say, a big oil company is negligent and a tanker crashes and destroys an ecosystem, and the old people in charge are sacked, would you expect the new people in charge of the company to apologise on behalf of the company? Is that meaningless? '

No, no I wouldn't. And yes, the new people apologising would be meaningless to me, because they didn't do it. They're not responsible for the spill. They're just there to clean up the mess.

It isn't about individuals apologising - it's about institutions, as Bloss says.
"we are sorry the institution we are part of , and uphold, did these things".

Does it matter iof the immediate targets of the action are no longer alve to hear it? POsthumous pardons, for e.g, are a huge relief to the great grandchildren of men shot for cowardince in WW1.

I think Yentil and Speedy have given examples of how the effects of slavery have lasting impact, as have thoughtful writers such as Kwame Kwei-Armah in the Observer at the wekend. Yes, amongst other factors...that doesn't make it unimportant.

I'm not advocating for for against an apology, but i think the context of today's worrld is still relevant and linked to what went on. Sadly.

I see Blu's point, and if black people were made happier by Tony Blair reading a script where he cited his deep personal sorry and that of his nation, then I'd be up for that.
I just don't think many black people are dumb enough to be taken in TB any more than other people. The Imperial War museum one had advertising posters where it was all red expect for Portugal and Antarctica, the tiny white bits were places the British hadn't fought.

Given the happy clappy nature of Price Charles, perhaps as king, he might modernise his court ?
Throw out silver stick in waiting, and replace him with the King's Pardoner.
His job will be to apologise to absolutely everyone who has suffered either directly, or indirectly at the hands of his government.

Certainly a full time job, we'd need someone with a bit of gravitas but able to give a good speech. Tony Benn perhaps ? Maybe Gordon Brown if he doesn't get to be PM ?

Someone earlier said something about slavery being in the past and therefore we could do nothing about it, but my mother was telling me about how she'd bought DD a lovely dressing gown in Primark and it was only £3 and I thought of this thread. I wondered how much the person who sewed it up was paid. And yes I do buy fairtrade bananas.

The thing is, we are still upholding the results of slavery aren't we? By buying cheap food, clothes etc.? Because a lot of the trading rules set by the agents of the Great Powers, are adversely affecting the descendents of slaves.

A lot of people in the eighteenth century who were able to buy consumer goods for the first time, were totally unaware of slavery and didn't ask too many uncomfortable questions about it. I think we do the same thing tbh, when we buy consumer goods we uncomfortably suspect may be produced by almost slave labour. And that's something positive we can do about slavery and its aftermath - support campaigns for fairer trading, erasing poverty, etc. Charity and apologies have their place, but alone they're useless.

Apologies are very very empty when not followed by real action. So Tony and George, or their followers, may one day decide to apologise to the Iraqi people for causing the deaths of at least 40 of them per day since 2003, but it won't actually DO anything for them, unless the perpetrators give aid, food, money, whatever is required to rebuild Iraq.

That really is my point about apologising. I could get my 3 year old son to apologise for snatching the next door neighbour's toy car, but what really is the point if he doesn't MEAN sorry, nor willing to give the car back ?

Caligula - you are right. My very first post on this thread was about doing something about the slavery that goes on around us NOW and dealing with injustice and prejudice.

I buy cheap clothes for ds, simply because I can't afford the posh stuff, but where do Baby Armani or Baby YSL get their clothes made? I bet it's not made in Italy or France, probably Bangladesh or India for cotton stuff, it would be crazy to get all their clothes made in Europe, far too expensive and a squeeze on their margins.

I find it really really difficult making a proper stand when it comes to shopping. I still buy toys "Made in China" when I know full well it was made under very poor conditions by Chinese workers. I feel like a hypocrite. On the other hand I am quite torn on this issue, because if we STOP buying stuff made in China, what will those workers do who will lose their jobs if we don't buy their products ? That is where our Govt. has to come in and make a stand against cheap labour, etc. Instead what the EU does is try to stop cheap shoes coming in from Taiwan (by slapping on high taxes)in order to PROTECT the European shoe market, not beacuse they give a toss about Taiwanese workers.

It really is a tough one. It is the same with buying organic. It may be good for the environment, but it doesn't do much for the poor farmers in most countries who still can't afford to switch to producing organic.

'it is the same with buying organic. It may be good for the environment, but it doesn't do much for the poor farmers in most countries who still can't afford to switch to producing organic.' DH is from Macedonia, one of the poorest countries in Europe. over there quite a few farmers produce fruit and veg organically, simply because they cannot afford pesticides. Getting organic certification though is another problem completely, especially when you don't belong to the EU. It is again about politics and Western profitable countries trying to protect their market.

Caligula - there was a very interesting programme about Wilberforce by Moira Stewart, in which she referred to large numbers of people refusing to use sugar during the time of slavery. Even if people didn't have access to mass media, there must have been a level of awareness that people were boycotting a popular product?

I think people knew...but like today, had blinkers on thoer consciences when they went hopping.

...shopping.

Presumably information would have been disseminated through pamphlets and church pulpits. I imagine non-conformist ministers could well have preached about it/Quakers raised it at Meeting, but if you were illiterate and CofE and your local priest was not bothered by it you might well not have known.

The C of E have squandered and lost so much of their money [reflected in the loss of priests' pensions amongst other things] through really appalling investments and terrible advisors. They are really so incompetent.
They should however, get rid of Bishops' palaces and invest the money back into society. I don't see why bishops should live in houses any different to normal priests. Pretty atrocious that it still goes on.

Sorry yes, I didn't mean they were totally unaware of its existence, I meant they were totally unaware of the reality of it.

Lots of the propaganda was about happy smiling slaves who liked it that way.

In the same way that lots of people now are uncomfortably aware that somewhere out there, there are awful factories and children working to produce cheap consumer goods, but unaware of the extent of it and also the direct (and indirect) influence our shopping habits have on that.

I do feel that in that sense, we are still the spiritual heirs of those who benefited from the slave trade. And that makes me feel far more shit than anything my ancestors might or might not have done, because I know I'm colluding in it whenever I go to supermarkets etc.

true caligula. But how many high street stores do not use this kind of cheap labour? Is there a list anywhere which shows you which high street chain clothes are more ethically produced than others? Or are they all equally bad? I avoid Gap but don't really know if Primark is any worse than say, Top Shop or Zara.

I thought it was quite meaningful that TB and the Queen attended that service (where there was some kind of fracas) - have not been following news reports so don't really know what else has been done/said.

But, I actually don't feel that an apology for slavery is all that meaningless. It is an acknowledgement that as a nation Britain recognises that a massive wrong was done. I think that it does need to go on record.

I agree that you cannot hold the child responsible for the actions of its parents but when the child has benefitted from those actions then there is an obligation to recognise the facts.

It probably won't change anything about racism today but future generations may learn something from it.

Don't buy a woven woollen rug that doesn't have the 'Rugmark' on it. The carpet trade of Northern India is notorious for kidnapping and enslaving young children.

It's very modern, isn't it, reminding ourselves that guiilt is a useless emotion etc.

I would be mortified of Ifound out my parents had , say, enslaved a child to make rugs. I would feel Ineeded to dedicate my life to reparation, I think.

"Getting organic certification though is another problem completely, especially when you don't belong to the EU. It is again about politics and Western profitable countries trying to protect their market".

Ruty - I agree. I have travelled to countries where much of the local food is vaguely "organic" any way, produced without pesticides. Someone in the Guardian took the piss out of the UK's Soil Association" once in a really funny satire article, comparing it to a "church" with bishops, etc who are holier than thou and who have very strict controls on membership. It does mean most poor farmers in other countries are excluded. Yes membership is still very priviledged and expensive.

Tesco recently said it didn't know that underage children in Asia were being employed in the factories that produce their clothes. It didn't know ?

yep. A lot of organic food is produced in Israel for our consumption. I have yet to see anything [organic or otherwise actually] produced in Palestine. Or Lebanon. etc. [sorry if bringing up another contentious subject]

Rugmark

it's amazing, Blu, how little impact organisations like these have on our every day consciousness. They should be the norm, not the exception.

howtohelp - has Britain apologised to every single country that it colonised (most now in the Commonwealth) or legitimate Govts it toppled or leaders it colluded to topple, or countries it invaded, or women and children it murdered for the sake of money ? I don't think so. I actually find a public show of apology for political/social wrongs quite patronising. My question is why the feck did they do it in the first place ?

Gap is another one, on a documentary Is aw about globalization (I have a very empty life )that claimed not to know. The chap presenting said, with the companies that have policies that aren't necessarily checked on, the best way to get them to activate them is to ask, every time you purchase an item, where it was made and if it was produced ethically: if enough people do it, it should filter up to the higher echelons.

People must have had some ideas about salvery. As I mentioned before, bridgwater in Somerset was the first town to petition against it. Now, whilst bridgwater was a docks town it didn't partake in the salve trade (I rpesume because it had its own trade of bricks). The place is 30 or so miles from the neares big salve port, Bristol, so I guess it filtered through. As the town is relatively rural and poor though, I would suggest that if they knew, then poeple generally 'knew'. There's a difference between knowing and doing: Bridgy has a history of doing (the ZSedgemoor Rebellion).

There was a documentary about Olaudah Equiano (ex-slave who campaigned against the trade) recently which said that his book and lecture tours were hugely important in spreading the word about what it was really like for the slaves.
This suggests that many people really didn't know till they heard him.
I wonder if he advised people to boycott sugar.