Apologising for the slave trade

[Pennies]

Today marks the 200th anniversary of the slave trade and there have been calls recently for there to be a formal apology from Tony Blair and / or the Queen.

Will it make any difference?

My personal opinion is that you can't apologise for someone else's actions - it would be a bit like me apologising for Tony Blair's sanctioning of the war in Iraq (and I have never voted for him so I haven't even approvied those actions vicariously IYSWIM). It would be an empty apology, wouldn't it?

I can't see that it would ever change anything, or am I missing something.

Only did 1 year I'm afarid

(sorry DC - you love it you know you do)

[cough 7 years of research]

Epilepy and parkinson's

Long time ago

When I had a 'Brian'

It is interesting isn't it that to date two black women of West Indian heritage who are totally unconnected have posted on this thread and shared their experiences and beliefs about what it is to be Black in the UK as well as why we personally believe that many people do not truly understand or appreciate the consequences of slavery.

I identified with a lot of what Yentil said in her first post and I know that many black people will. You see, I know, like Yentil, the reality of being black in Britain. The covert racism that permeates every strata of society is very corrosive and I believe that the only way that black people can overcome this is to academically, economically and spiritually empower themselves.

When I was at university studying for my chemistry degree, I came in early once and as I was walking down the corridor, this lady said to me, "you're late". I looked around, saw nobody else and realised she was talking to me. She assumed that I was the cleaner. Despite the fact that I was carrying books, all she saw was a black woman and that meant I had to be a cleaner.

This has happened in my professional life too. However, I don't want violins or pity. I don't go round thinking everybody is against me or looking for defamation/slights to my character. I take it in my stride because I am use to it. It has always happened and will continue to happen until I pass away. My way of dealing with it is to be successful, use my education and intelligence (despite what DC may think) to further myself and at the same time demonstrate to my white colleagues that I am just as able as them. I am fortunate that has been the case and everything I have achieved has been on merit. I feel that because I have embraced education, I have emancipated myself from the negative expectations that others have of me (like my school teachers) and consequently, forged my own destiny.

I want to be seen and treated as an equal and on my own merits. I don't want to be judge by my skin colour or treated as a colour because that is the legacy of slavery and colonialism. When more and more black people accomplish their goals to be successful so that they attain economic equality, the legacy of slavery will be consigned to the past where it belongs (but never forgotten).

Sadly Speedy, I don't doubt that one bit. I've seen enough prejudice aimed at my boys for being SN< to know its is everywhere, especially where you least expect it (I'm not necessarily equating the two- very different subjetcs). Bar the obvious answer, stop being arcists pricks, what should we, as a society be doing? I do mean that as an honest question.

PC, from my experience the best way to tackle it is to not live up to their stereotype. That is what racists thrive on. Being successful on ones own terms using ones innate ability and/or intellect is the best weapon anybody can use to overcome adversity. When you rise above their lowly expectations and shatter their xenophobic illusions, it hurts them because they recognise that you are empowered economically, politically, socially and psychologically. When you achieve that, you are enslaved to nobody.

That makes a whole lot of sense, Speedy . I suppose in lots of ways its getting the kids to see that they can break the mould that is hard? Just thinking about the almost absolute lack of black people in our school (though HT handpicks so it could be that simple- we only got in by bizarre 1747-or-thereabouts admission criteria (and yes the date is right LOL)). Not an awful lot of black people on my course at Uni either, one in my class (not a huge class though) but very few, considering Newports ethnic profile.

My friends sister was not allowed to play netball for her school. My friend said it was thinly disguised racism.

Guess what she is now the England Captain.

Although I do not doubt the prejudice that black people suffer all over the world, I think in the UK it is not a black vs. white issue. Not any more any way. The problems facing black people in this country (prejudice on the basis of skin colour at school, work, etc.) are identical to the prejudice faced by ALL ethnic minorities.

I speak from experience here because I have friends from many parts of the world living here in the UK or elsewhere in Europe who feel the burden of prejudice, be it due to colour, race, religion, different culture, etc. Britain in not perfect, but I have lived in parts of Europe where ethnic groups are spat at on the street. If I were from an ethinic minority group I would much rather live here than say in Vienna or parts of France or parts of Germany. That does not mean that everyone should forget all about slavery and oppression both past and present. It just means that we need to work harder at eliminting prejudice faced by ALL minority groups.

Speedy, I know one of the first black woman professors in this country (who was headhunted to be a prof at my university but has since left) and the first time she turned up at the university Senate (governing body, for anyone reading this thread who doesn't know) one of the men said to her, 'You do realise this is Senate, dear?' - making exactly the same assumption that was made in your case. Of course the fact that she would have been wearing a suit seems to have passed their attention

Yellowrose, surely different ethnic groups will have quite different experiences depending on the particular prejudices held about each group? eg. black men assumed to be potential muggers, Muslims to be potential terrorists etc.

I think what Speedy said about the currency of the 'but...' was very clear.

I am agog and rofl at DC's "As for your indentity crisis, this seems more like a personal issue that requires medication and counselling, not political solutions." Now, if that were written about DC and religion, it would make sense!

Suzy, since Yentil has been called dumb, loud and a crap parent, I'm not sure that 'rude', in the context of this thread should be targetted at her, and I have a good degree in Language and literature (go, DC, go!) but you should see my typing, grammar and speling when I'm riled. Unnecessary.

DC: My first job was working as an assistant in a local history library. Days and days of Americans who had paid thousands in air fares and hotel bills, just to seek out that bit of them that was 'English' or 'Derbyshire', "I'm Irish" "My husband is Scottish"...and everything about them screamed "American". But the desparation in them to find something of their ancestral history and link it to Pre-emigration was so intense that sometimes ( I was young and romantic) I would find references to thier 'family' on microfiche and in books that i could see had nothing to d with them, eally, but it was too hard to see them disappointed.

The adoption and sperm donor laws have been changed in recognition of the drive children - happy, well-parented adopted children - have for their 'other' history. Why do you think that the ancestral severance experienced by the enslaved people should be of little consequence? Why do you believe everyone should feel like you when clearly they don't. And when clearly their psychlogical needs are respected and understood by psycholgists. Yes, you have had to go forward without knowledge of your grandparents - do you think that is possibly why you come across as deeply fucked up sometimes?

And a whole thread peppered with thoughts about how black people ought and should react to the history of slavery.

I'm not black and the 'oughts' and 'shoulds' I apply should be just to how I react - not how other peole should react.

I don't know who actually asked TB for an apology - does anyone know? Or is it a notipon that has arisen as an idea? From somewhere?

My impression from news reports was that the apology issue came from the A/b of Canterbury. The CofE were discussing whether the church should apologise and offer reparation which then lead on to whether the govt. should too.

Kathy - that is true. Different sorts of prejudice will be targetted at different groups, it may be skin colour or it may be religion or simply the country they were born in. A friend of mine used to help asylum seekers to get work in London. She used to weep about the inability of highly skilled Iraqi and Afghan doctors (who mostly speak excellent English) who have come here because WE have bombed the shit of their countries only to find they can't get a decent job in the NHS as doctors.

There is no BETTER prejudice than any other forms of prejudice. Whatever it is based on derives from ignorance and a poor understanding of other people's cultures.

Just been reading the link on the Irish famine and it makes for sad angry reading. DC would do well to read it and not limit his view to lack of crop diversity as being the main issue. What it reminded me of was the countless lessons I had in school (Irish) about the famine. Whatever atrocities are committed by whoever should always be taught as part of the curriculum. How can we have a debate until we are all more informed.

Dropsohpila my post had many factors, genetic diversity was compounded and amplified by Christian cultures that refused to help and Churches stealing what little money was made available for aid.
"Racism" is not a precise art, not indeed does it require a "race". Skin colour simply makes it easier. Football violence in Britain is usually between groups of white males, yet has most of the same tone as racist attacks. I have heard blokes use terms about the supporters of other teams worth as human being which is exactly the same as the language of racists.
My family evolved from the Northern Irish, and the lengths they went to be racist were entertaining. Although the protestants and Catholics tend be from Scottish/English vs Irish ancestry, they are much the same ethnic group, and of course inter bred.
This means if you want to pick a fight with a random "enemy", you have to try and work it out by subtle signs, with the hilarious result of dumb NIers trying to do "racism" on their own race.
In NI you will much frequently be asked the name of your junior school than in civlised parts of Britain. That's because the Catholic/Irish schools tend to have different names.

oh yentil you do amuse me: 'you have obviously spent your whole life justifying the actions of your ancestors'.

eeer...my ancestors are Kashmiri, white Irish and North American Indian.

You are just funny.

yentil
I 'm sorry I was petty about your spelling, that was childish of me

no stereotypes in your mind eh, yentil?

I still don't understand what purpose an apology from someone who didn't actually commit the act is going to serve.

I am so uncomfortable posting on this topic. Partly because I genuinely don?t know enough about it to offer an informed opinion and can?t share the feeling of those whose lives and sense of belonging have been affected. But partly because I am terrified of the ?r? word. I don?t think I?m racist, I certainly am not conscious of being so, but when yentil writes about the ?blatant racism? of the postings on this thread I do wonder if I am ? because I simply can?t see most of them as racist. Which makes me question myself. I once read Meridian by Alice Walker and it depressed me so much as it implied to me that there was no common ground between black and white, no level on which there could be dialogue ? nothing that in white European history or culture that was worthwhile, nothing that could be shared. Because of past shared history that had all been about violence and domination, the future could only be more of the same. Yentil?s post made me feel much the same. I want to agree with her ? morally she is right, but where does that leave those of us who are not consciously racist, who want to do the right thing, think that we do as best we can, but simply feel at sea about it all?

Message withdrawn

Well Bloss do you think your children and grandchildren should be held responsible for anything that you do?

Expat how would it hurt to apologise?

But bloss, NO ONE IS ALIVE from when it all happened?

So, as paula pointed out, would you want your descendants to go around apologising for something you did 200 years ago?

No, that doesn't make it okay that it was in the past, no one is saying that.

But hey, my ancestry is Mayan Indian, Spanish and French, shall I apologise for the half of my Spanish ancestry's atrocities against the other, Mayan part of me?

That just seems a bit of a non sequitur.

I didn't ask that, dros, I asked what the purpose of insisting on it is?

That's what I want to know, all 'debates' aside.

Admittedly, I am not black. But I'm not white, either, so coming at this from another angle.