London Fire: Grenfell Tower thread five

[RhythmAndStealth]

RIP

Five victims officially named
At least 79 victims expected, possibly more
Many displaced and struggling

To all those affected and all those helping

Thread four
Thread three
Thread three contains links to threads one and two.

Thinking about it, the police may not be able to give 'estimates' on how many people might have died at Grenfell without evidence or information relating to people in the building because of the legal implications.

They might NEED to have a body, or a witness to a person's presence or some kind of evidence.

If they don't have this, and say we think that there were 200 people who died, without sufficient evidence to back it up, they might endanger the possibility of a conviction because someone might be able to defend themselves by saying the police had prejudiced the trial by not supplying evidence of the number of dead and instead had somehow exaggerated the seriousness of the crime.

I hadn't thought about things in these terms before, but it is entirely possible. As I say, I'm no legal expert, but it would seem a logical explanation behind the way the police are conducting their investigation and not bowing to calls to produce estimate at this stage until they feel they have that level of evidence.

Other thoughts about Hillsborough / Grenfell and potential prosecutions:

David Conn‏*@david*_conn
Norman Bettison charged with lying when he said in 1998 he'd "never attempted to shift the blame onto .. Liverpool supporters" #Hillsborough
Sir Norman Bettison also charged with lying in 2012 when said in press release he had never "besmirched" Liverpool supporters #Hillsborough
Sir Norman Bettison is charged with lying four times, about his role after the disaster & claiming he never blamed supporters #Hillsborough

Sir Norman Bettison, the former chief constable of Merseyside and West Yorkshire police, has been charged with four counts of misconduct in a public office.

In this context I would suggest that Nicholas Paget-Brown should perhaps be more careful about what he says about sprinklers being rejected by the residents. Another councillor from Labour, who says she was at the same meetings, says this is not the case, sprinklers were never discussed with residents and Paget-Brown should rescind the comments.

Helena, what proof have you that the tenants were: "ignored beliitled and then threatened with malicious legal action unless they STFU about fire safety."
You have your opinion - which isn't exactly neutral, as your posts on this thread show.
You seem to like the terms belittled and bullied, but these are often used when the 'belittled and bullied' person does not get what they want.
As I have said on this and previous threads, tenants' 'complaints' were more or less a daily occurrence when I worked for the local press, and most of them were just general whinging, rather than tangible - and valid - complaints.
The examples we spoke about yesterday were both tangible and valid, but they were surrounded in so much hyperbole and drama that people are turned off, frankly.

From BBC:

The final Grenfell Tower fire death toll will not be known until at least the end of the year, with 80 people currently presumed dead, police say.

The vast majority of those who died were said to be in 23 of the North Kensington building's 129 flats.

The 14 June fire destroyed 151 homes, most in the tower block, but also a number of surrounding properties.

Det Supt Fiona McCormack said the full death toll will only be known when the search and recovery operation is over.

She said: "What I can say is that we believe that around 80 people are either dead or sadly missing and I must presume that they are dead."

The officer added: "I don't want there to be any hidden victims. We want to understand the true human cost of this tragedy."

Police said some residents had tried to move up the building to escape the flames and it is thought a number of people may have ended up in one flat.

Det Supt McCormack said officers were having to prepare some families for the reality that their relatives remains may never be recovered.

There was "utter devastation inside the flats," she said.

Cathf your attacks on Helena are pathetic and I'm beginning to question your motives. This is not her opinion. The proof as you have requested is in the correspondence to and from the grenfell action group and the tmo. It's all there on their blog if you care to read it instead of attacking Helena continually.

In relation to number of deaths inequests are being held and then postponed as is usual when a criminal case is going on. Eg one poor lady lost grip on her 5 year old's hand. They have now found his remains a few floors down and identified him from teeth I presume (dental records). Another person I read about from the inquest reports was found about 7 floors down from where they were -again died of the smoke trying to get down. It is so horrible. I was thinking after that if only they had been told to leave the moment there was any smoke rather than some told tos tay for 2 or 3 hours things might have been better but it seems some were told to leave their flats and then died on the stairs.

I agree Cath it seems like you aren't reading things properly, just jumping to the bit where people say how they feel and dismissing it as just feelings. There are valid concerns about safety and how tenants are treated. Lots of them, and it's not just Helena who thinks so.

Your comment about why would a HA put people in danger was laughable tbh. We all know people will put others in danger to make or save money - if they wouldn't we wouldn't need laws and regulations! They aren't written for fun.

Why are you spending time on a Grenfell thread if you can't even be bothered to read the Grenfell residents action group blog.

I think you will find it goes both ways mrsglow
After my first post on this thread, Helena nicely pointed out to everyone that I don't like poor people! Now that's pathetic.
Helena is relentlessly using this whole tragedy to push her own agenda and will not listen to any opinions other than her's.
What do you think my agenda is?

I have read the blog Batteries - not sure why you think I haven't.

I just read that BBC article. I think I'm going to have to stop reading news articles about the victims - when I read about the woman found dead with her six month old baby in her amrs, I felt physcally sick. It's so sad. The articles about the building standards' failures are bad enough.

Helena's 'agenda' is to raise awareness of the way some HAs treat their tenants, which is absolutely fine.

Just read that it may be next year before a full total of deaths can be provided.

And my 'agenda' is to question a lot of the emotive hyperbole and OMG drama - is that ok with you?

Crack on, lovey. Be careful it doesn't tip over into hounding Helena again though

Press Association‏*@PA*
#Breaking Around 80 people dead or missing and presumed dead following Grenfell Tower fire, police say
#Breaking Police have made contact with at least one person from 106 of the 129 flats in the block, Scotland Yard says

Alastair Reid‏*@ajreid*

Latest on #GrenfellTower:

- 80 dead/missing presumed dead
- 386 households in emergency housing
- Tenant list from KCTMO "not accurate"

People are going to be up in arms about this, but that does actually seem more consistent with the data that the Grenfell community have put together themselves than you might think.

Looking through their list there appear to be around 17 flats who the community list as all occupants being missing or dead. These are all flats with names that have been in the public domain. The BBC have about 70 names and the police are saying about 80.

There is room for those flats where no contact with the police and the community don't have information for to have been made to be over crowded illegal sublets. (The police might also be aware of a flat where someone escaped which was sublet too, but they have some idea of what was going on in that flat even if they don't know exactly who was in it that night).

Its sounding like there are potentially around six flats that remain a mystery from comparing what the police are saying, what's in the media and what the community are all saying. I think this is important to keep in mind over potential numbers.

Perhaps the biggest inconsistency now seems to be over the number of people who were witnessed to jump, which David Lammy has talked about and this is one of the reasons why people are questioning things so much.

So far the inquests for the majority of those named as dead were reported on the stairwell. There are few that could potentially be jumpers. There are also a number of deaths which names and reasons for death have been withheld by the press. This is just a theory, but what if these were people who jumped but because of cultural sensitivities over suicide, there would be a reason not to make that public?

I could be very wrong on this but I do think its important to try and think of possible explanations for inconsistencies between what is public and what is not and why those inconsistencies might be there. The police ARE acknowledging there is a gap in what they know rather than denying it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40434741

some residents had tried to move up the building to escape the flames and it is thought a number of people may have ended up in one flat

the 23 flats where most victims are believed to have died were located between the 11th and 23rd floors - and the fire service received 26 calls from residents there

"every imaginable source" of information "from government agencies to fast food companies" had been used by officers as part of their inquiries to identify the victims

more than 60 "companies and organisations" played a role in the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower - work that is believed to have helped aid the spread of the fire

Police said "it would have been impossible for anyone to produce a list before that showed exactly who was in Grenfell Tower that night - that includes those people living there but also those visiting".

18 people connected to 106 flats which they had made contact with a resident.

The rest are from the other 23 flats whom they have been unable to trace anyone living.

I don't think it gets much more dramatic than 80+ people dying Cathf. Because no one listened to their concerns.

And I am sorry you find some accounts from people who have had acid sprayed in their faces or been without heating/hot water/natural light for months not 'newsworthy' enough because they have too much OMG drama in them for the newspaper you used to write for. It wasn't the Tory Times by any chance was it?

my 'agenda' is to question a lot of the emotive hyperbole and OMG drama - is that ok with you?

80 of more people died in a horrific inferno due to what is now becoming clear was a systemic failure in fire safety in council owned tower blocks. This failure has turned out to be a nationwide issue, and at Grenfell tower it resulted in whole families burning to death.

And you are having a go at people for being emotive or dramatic? FFS, what's wrong with you?

Some councils declaring they are at a loss as to what to replace the cladding with, as recent tests show it is unsafe despite being passed as safe recently. What a mess all this is.

I am not talking about the disaster, as you well know.
I am talking about overly dramatic accounts of tenants' 'suffering' such as having to take slight detours, not having an oven for a couple of weeks or having a crane parked outside your window. All of which are perfectly normal parts of having work done in your home. I have agreed having a substance in your face and being lumbered with more expensive heating are worthy of complaint.
I am also talking about the reaction when it is suggested that sometimes tenants do moan and sometimes they do things they shouldn't, such as leave fire doors open.
Posters seen to lack the ability to take a step back and look at things objectively - they are only interested in tales of how awful life is for ha tenants.
Helena seems to have found her little fan club here, so I will leave you alone to swap stories,about how awful ha landlords are.

Surely they could look to the US and EU for safety standards and use something that complies with those. High rises are hardly unique to the UK.

Maybe they mean they are at a loss as to how to cheaply replace the cladding.

True, Batteries. Look at countries with a higher bar for external fire proofing and their records of containment within a high rise environment. I don't get the impression they are looking for a cheap fix, just that what they had been assured was safe turns out not to be. In which case, why should they foot the bill, they might say, but good luck getting any sort of corporate responsibility or government help.

Odd that so many buildings in a variety of locations and settings have this siding. Obviously it was available for purchase (not one dodgy fellow bringing the product in from a third world country).
As it is noticed to be on more and more buildings; schools hospitals libraries etc. the compensation to GT residents will be less.

The issue isn't purely the cladding though.

The US safety is based on a totally different way of preventing fire from spreading. The system relies on sprinklers whereas the British system is based on compartmentalising flats into units which fire can not spread from.

The problem in the UK is therefore not just the cladding spreading the fire its also whether individual units have been compromised too.

The renovation work for Grenfell Tower was signed off for safety in 2016, BUT work on elements of the building continued after this. (Things related to the gas pipes).There were people going around drilling things for example. Did this contribute to the spread of fire by compromising units?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/grenfell-tower-gas-pipes-left-exposed-despite-fire-safety-experts-orders

This article from yesterday also talked about those gas pipes stating:

However, one survivor, Mickey Paramasivan, 37, told reporters immediately after the blaze: “There were explosions everywhere you looked, lots of bangs, blue gas coming out everywhere you looked.”

LFB also said the day after the blaze that it had not been able to put out the flames until firefighters had isolated a ruptured gas main in the block.

Also fire doors should, in theory, help stop the spread of smoke and fire. The trouble is that leaseholders are in theory the ones responsible for this. But if a household which is privately owned has a fire and it doesn't have the proper fire doors in working order then that potentially endangers everyone else with smoke. In theory the management company have a duty to their tenants, so if they aren't able to enforce the rules on fire doors on privately owned flats then there is a bit of an issue.

This is partly why the focus shouldn't all be on the cladding, because the other issues could be contributory because of the way British buildings are intended to stop the spread of fire.

Our primary method of stopping the spread of fire in the UK might be completely incompatible with cladding. Other countries might be able to use it more safely precisely because there are other ways to prevent the spread of fire and protect residents and other regulatory standards and enforcement are more robust and not simply reliant on containment within a single area.

Obviously it was available for purchase (not one dodgy fellow bringing the product in from a third world country).

Perhaps not, but there is stuff that raises a few questions here:

Harley Facades the sub contractor of Rydon Ltd was apparently essentially a phoenixed company. The work was completed by Harley Curtain Wall but was bought by Harley Facades shortly after.

See this article which states:

The source also highlighted that, during the works, the previous incarnation of Harley Facades entered administration and Rydon agreed to transfer the contract to new Harley company. This has been independently verified - and was reported in the Telegraph - and the liquidation is thought to have been provoked by a substantial claim regarding defective cladding on another project.

(another source about Harley Curtain Wall being bought by Harley Facades)

(www.dailytelegraph.com.au/boss-of-company-which-installed-highly-flammable-grenfell-tower-cladding-did-not-know-what-material-was-used/news-story/e87bade91c71f8e173e39f3e38e2dd0b
Harley managing director Raymond Bailey and his wife Belinda had been director and secretary of Harley Curtain Wall, which was responsible for the cladding project at the tower block.
The firm recently went bust, owing creditors more than £1 million, before being bought up by Mr Bailey’s other firm Harley Facades.)

I'm trying to find the original reference in the Telegraph that states that the phoenix was as a result of an issue over the failure of cladding but I can't at the moment.

Harley is apparently the company that was involved in Camden where the council claim that they wanted fire resistant cladding, but on testing it failed and they are seeking legal action as a result. See here

Agree Red. The focus shouldnt just be on the cladding.

The DM article about the tenant who owned the fridge has done a lot of damage.

I heard some victim blaming in RL about it today consisting of people not understanding why didnt he warn his neighbours about the fire and why did he pack a bag.

i said that he did warn his immediate neighbours. They replied that he should have warned the rest of the building as well. 24 floors?!

The mental gymnastics involved is really quite something. This is why "lessons will be learned" is such a crock of shit. Because the terrible false smearing of the Hillsborough families and the way it was proved that these smears were lies......many have learned nothing from this at all.
Are we really about to travel a similar route again again almost thirty years on.