London Fire: Grenfell Tower thread five

[RhythmAndStealth]

RIP

Five victims officially named
At least 79 victims expected, possibly more
Many displaced and struggling

To all those affected and all those helping

Thread four
Thread three
Thread three contains links to threads one and two.

Red i thought i saw something about survivors just a couple of days after the fire talking about seeing blue flames. Cant remember where i saw it though.

I heard some victim blaming in RL about it today consisting of people not understanding why didnt he warn his neighbours about the fire and why did he pack a bag.

Helena, I think it feels safer for many people to put the blame on a resident or residents, because it is far too scary to come to the realisation that the government really doesn't care about people, or at least people in certain groups in society. It has been a real eye-opener for me to see that the British government isn't even bothered to PRETEND to care about what happened. Seeing what has happened in the country over the past 13 months (I'm not British and I don't live in the UK) has been the saddest thing to watch.

That probably sounds ridiculous, and in any case I'm not expressing it well. But I can actually understand why a lot of people might feel more comfortable pinning the blame on residents, as it gives them more of a feeling of control ("That could never happen to me, because I would never X and Y." "I can't be expected to do anything about these kinds of living conditions/councils, because the people who live there don't even care anyway." That type of thing.)

Labour and Tory Governments and local councils and housing associations and buildings regulations checkers and cladding manufacturers and all the rest to be fair feel absolutely dreadful about all this and really do care. The fact there seem to have been a series of almightly cockups and probably negligence is not because of a lack of caring about people. I think just about everyone is devastated about it at all levels of society.

I believe some buildings with the cladding have sprinklers. It is so complex. Had there been working fire doors or no gas mains explosions or even the right fire resistant links between cladding and walls etc it might have not been as bad.

Fire doors are usually in corridors so someone buying a long leasehold flat in an ex council block would be paying with the council for all major repairs, new lifts, roof resurfacing etc in proportion to their ownership of the block. I doubt the front door into an individual flat is a fire door. The fire doors tend to be those very hard to open huge heavy doors you get in so many offices (which idiots tend to block open with fire extinguishers until the office fire safety officer notices and stops it).

lucy being forrin I have no political axe to grind, but the government and local council made absolutely no effort to look like they cared in the early days. None at all.

I think you can feel as bad as you like about something, but unless you actually show it then it really doesn't do the victims a whole lot of good.

That sounds rather more vehement than I intended, but the basis of it is true.

there are different kinds of fire doors.
internal fire doors look just like normal doors. they tend to be a little heavier, which you hardly notice when they are hung well.
the self closing ones are the ones that are heavy.

Press Association @ PA
#Breaking Retired Court of Appeal judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick to lead the public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster, sources confirm

This guy is going down like a lead balloon on twitter.

Mutaz Elnour @ MutazElnour
Downing Street has appointed Sir Martin Moore-Bick to be the judge leading the Grenfell inquiry... which should alarm everyone.
2014 he ruled Westminster city council should be allowed to rehouse, Titina Nzolameso, a single mother of five 50 miles away from her home.
Suffered from diabetes and hypertension, and is HIV-positive. Her lawyers denounced the move as "ethnic cleansing". Set dangerous precedent.
Sir Martin Moore-Bick was wrong. The supreme court overturned the ruling, saying authorities had a duty to provide accommodation in the area
Residents of Grenfell Tower, like Titina Nzolameso, want permanent rehousing in the local area. This is the man who's leading their inquiry.
Very big thanks and credit to @SamCoatesTimes @thetimes for the scoop.

The Panorama program certainly didn't give the impression that anyone from local or central cared. I think they are only pretending to now because people are genuinely outraged and not letting it drop.

That guy on the program - where are the Army? Where are the official people who help in a crisis situation? Why are ordinary people coordinating the relief effort?

It was as if they lived somewhere where there wasn't an infrastructure to fall back on. Chilling.

there is no conspiracy here, builders/management may have taken the cheaper options but no one did this because they wanted an accident to happen or to hurt people.

even in our own homes we make choices to not spend money. for example tools, wrenches and such which at a professional grade can be very pricey a cheaper version you might say works just as well until you break a finger using it or it snaps and you nearly loose an eye.
there is no doubt this will be a milestone event and there will be changes but I don't think it will be the social revolution some of you think it will be.

I heard some victim blaming in RL about it today consisting of people not understanding why didn't he warn his neighbours about the fire and why did he pack a bag.

Why is that "victim blaming?" Why shut down a legitimate question by throwing accusations of victim blaming? People want to understand the sequence of events and it was reported, rightly or wrongly, that the man whose fridge caught fire, was seen with packed bags when he knocked on the door of neighbours on his floor. If true, that must have taken time.
In the same vein (of wanting to understand) I'm curious to know about the fire brigade reporting that they'd put out the fridge fire and were leaving the flat, job-done. Was that before or after the resident left? Surely neighbours would have heard the commotion and been alerted? Or had they already left too?

Also from earlier today:
www.independent.co.uk/property/house-and-home/pets/news/fire-safety-measures-grenfell-tower-sprinklers-retrofitting-fire-service-cuts-independent-panel-a7812646.html
Fire safety independent panel chair advised against retrofitting sprinklers and authored report advocating £200m fire service cuts

Sir Ken Knight will now advise the Government on its response to the Grenfell Tower fire

But in his report the Lakanal House fire in Camberwell, which killed three women and three children in 2009, the former London fire commissioner wrote: "It is not considered as practical or economically viable to make a requirement for the retrospective fitting of fire suppression systems to all current high-rise residential buildings.

However it is a matter for individual housing owners and landlords to decide if automatic fire suppression is required as part of their fire safety strategy based on their fire risk assessment."

fires in the UK have greatly decreased over the century. mainly in part to less people smoking. it would be very hard for the fire commissioner to advocate the same level of service given the statistics.

octupus the person talking to me today expected him to run all over the tower block alerting every neighbour On 24 floors.

Out2 i dont think it will cause a social change either.

Red that judge sounds totally inappropriate.

I just caught up with Victoria Derbyshires show from this morning.

Powerful and gave the residents a chance to discuss things that they needed to.

Should have gone out at prime time IMO.

I dont think it will cause a social change because plenty are happy with housing policy just the way it is.

Out2 it is ten years since the smoking ban. However electronic cigarettes are now a problem

there is no conspiracy here, builders/management may have taken the cheaper options but no one did this because they wanted an accident to happen or to hurt people.
even in our own homes we make choices to not spend money.

I can't get my head around the fact you think you can compare this to you or I doing a spot of DIY!

Out2pasture I actually don't disagree with that. However his position on lakanal house is more what I think is difficult from the point of view of observers. His observations in that relate on to cost and practical nature of installing rather than down to safety of residents. The emphasis is not on the human element of those who live in these places but on money and how difficult it is for those who maintain the buildings. The concept of people having value is absent.

This is the crux of the whole situation that led to Grenfell. Residents as after thoughts and almost a nusiance who are worthless and not considered.

How can you break that feeling and foster trust when the leaders of the inquiry and who are advising the government don't appear to have the necessary objectiveness from the word go.

Two years ago a snake got into our flat and we had no idea where it came from octupus.

I posted in AIBU and got asked why i didnt go around the estate beyond my block after midnight (i live in a block of 4 flats)

Ridiculous....the amount of these different blocks of flats there are where i live.

There is no way i could have run round the whole estate buzzing every flat buzzer (in my case i would probably have been arrested for disturbing the peace.)
And there is no way the guy who owned that fridge could have run around 24 storeys banging on every door. The firefighters did put out the original fire emanating from the fridge. When they were leaving they saw flames licking up the outside of the building.

Good post at 00.39 Red.

Are they trying to pull a Butler Sloss re judge.

a. Unsuitable judge gets appointed.
b. outcry.
c. judge steps down.
d go back to drawing board and spend time choosing another judge.
e. rinse and repeat.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/28/london-council-that-evacuated-building-knew-of-fire-door-problem-five-years-ago

A London council that mounted an emergency evacuation of hundreds of people from their tower block homes last weekend partly because fire doors were not working was warned about the problem five years ago.
Hundreds evacuated from London tower blocks over fears of Grenfell repeat
Read more

Fire safety experts told Camden council in 2012 that apartment doors in Taplow, a 23-storey tower on the Chalcots estate in Swiss Cottage, were not sufficiently fire resistant and should be replaced. Last weekend the building was evacuated after the London fire brigade raised multiple fire safety concerns including that “fire doors in the building are not working as they should, meaning that in the event of a fire it could spread to other parts of the building”.

The 2012 fire risk assessment, seen by the Guardian, concluded the doors would not provide residents with 30 minutes fire separation and recommended “all apartment doors are replaced”

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_595437c1e4b05c37bb7bdad6?
Grenfell Tower: Survivors Banned From Council Meeting Because Of Fear Of Violence

Council leaders have taken the decision to hold tonight’s meeting (Thursday June 29) behind closed doors - with all public and press banned from attending.

An update on the Grenfell Tower fire will be given orally, meaning the only record that will exist of the report will be in the minutes - which can be minimal.