In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

"A fire investigation report into the devastating blaze at Grenfell Tower in west London will not be released publicly until the opening of full inquests into those who have died – which could take years"

I'm going to give the media a while to get their numbers straight Auntie. You might want to pop over to the Westminstender thread as there's a good account of the situation there that might help make things clearer. Post today at 16.01.42

helena The police have promised though that if any of the finding of the police investigation impact on public safety they will release the information immediately.

Sorry, Helena. I'm a bit frazzled after interpreting that press conference!

for all those who have lost their lives and those affected by this tragedy.

Rhythm when you posted that picture of little boys face last night i couldnt help crying.

I really REALLY hope this brings a seismic change in how social housing tenants are viewed and treated and that when they raise concerns about works and refurbishment that is being done or the behaviour of contractors and sub contractors they are respected and taken seriously.

But with some of the comments ive seen elsewhere i unfortunately doubt it.

There was a case of a Syrian family of parents and 3 grown up daughters who were thought to be missing but turned up only yesterday.

The example highlights a few things that could be adding to problems identifying who was in the building because it gives some important information about the type of people living in the building

1. It's Ramadan. There were people who were out of the building and people who were visiting friends in other flats in the building. There were people who didn't live there who were visiting friends mainly because it was Ramadan. There may of been plenty of others who lived in the building but were visiting others and have not thought they would be regarded as amongst the missing, perhaps because they were with family and its neighbours who have reported them missing.
2. Language problems. We assume that everyone who lived in the building knew what to do, how to report in etc etc.
3. The Council chaos. No clear details or consistent information on what to do, how to tell people you were safe. This might have been compounded by language barriers
4. Even people with a right to stay here might be fearful of authority if their paperwork has been destroyed in the fire. They might think they are at risk of being deported even if they are legally here. So 'disappeared' only to be reassured they were fine. It highlights the vulnerability of some in the building
5. Add in people who might have criminal records, dubious immigration status or be in a flat which is not let in a way that is above board. These people might be afraid to go somewhere which might led to them somehow getting into trouble with the authorities. Remember the lack of trust of authority.
6. There are also people who do want to inflate the figure for their political ends which though connected are not primarily about this event. Fuelling mistrust in authority is good propaganda. There is a real case for socialism supporting this, but there have also been elements seeking to exploit that and create division rather than seek justice and accountability. This event evolves around broken trust and the way to find justice is through rebuilding that trust. As equally as some want to 'cover up' there are people who want to pour fuel on the fire.
7. The Home Office (under May) has employed a 'deport first, ask questions later policy' and this has led to a certain reputation. Two of these policies have been found to be illegal by the courts, but there is still great fear of the department.

This is precisely why the police were hesitant to put out figures. Its also why media and social media did in that void due to pressure about the lack of information - and now people are doubting the police figures being lower than what has been circulating.

There are people who have an agenda to inflate / suppress the death toll figures. There are people who have an agenda to suppress the causes and possible blame for the fire.

The police / fire service really aren't one of them - even with the 'stay put policy - because of all the other things surrounding this case. If anything a higher death toll, supports their calls for more resources and regulation.

These are people who even now are risking their lives to go into the building.

The confusion over the numbers only serves to emphasis the failings of the council and government and how those who lived in the building were the most vulnerable in society and how issues over complex housing issues are. And how badly trust is broken.

Thanks everyone attempting to explain the numbers. I don't think anyone itt is suspecting a cover up, more trying to make sense of what is being reported. Both from the mainstream media and the various videos circulating from members of the community.

I did just find this link to the Met Police Major Incident Procedure manual on another forum which explains the protocol of the emergency services in reporting fatalities which makes things a little more clear also. beta.met.police.uk/globalassets/downloads/about-the-met/major-incident-procedure-manual-9th-ed.pdf (Section 14.13)

Something's just occurred to me...

The c400 number that the police talked about as their starting point.

That could seem a bit low precisely because it was based on missing person reports not a residents list.

So people who made it out safely and were able to easily give their names were never on the list. Nor were some people who were at work when the fire happened and rushed home e.g. the partner of the woman who carried her kids down from the 19th floor you mention Deux. He was working at Chelsea and Westminster hospital on the night shift. Their story is featured in this article

Don't give up hope Helena

Gathrer.com are compiling a missing persons list.

Thanks Monica

I wont Rhythm

'Something's just occurred to me...

The c400 number that the police talked about as their starting point.

That could seem a bit low precisely because it was based on missing person reports not a residents list.'

Thanks Rhythm for putting that into words. That is what I've been trying to get at. I think there are many people known to be safe who were never on the list.

Red toothbrush, I seriously doubt people are pretending to be missing presumed dead to fuel a left wing agenda that the tragedy is greater than it is.

Sadly I don't think we will ever really know how many people died in this disaster.

There are lots of rumours going aroundcon twitter etc that there is a d notice in place, the media have denied it, but then they are hardly likely to admit to either are they? There was apparently one in place in the days following the Manchester bombing, and none of us knew about it.

Last night a woman appeared on the news saying that when you go past the tower on the train, you can see 'hundreds of body bags', today the train line is closed for sfetey fears... you can certainly see why people think it's being covered up.

The school next to Grenfell is clad in the same cladding.

The thought of this is terrifying.

I'm puzzled why the policeman didn't say 30 have been confirmed as having died plus another 28 are missing presumed dead, as that has caused some confusion.

That's good to hear Sylvia

The thought of anyone "illegal" being scared to let authorities know they were safe hadn't even occurred to me :(

I seriously doubt people are pretending to be missing presumed dead to fuel a left wing agenda

That is seriously not what I said nor suggested.

Why are they only today concerned about falling debris? Surely that was more of an issue when the building was still on fire? Trains were running then.

Sorry, redtoothbrush, I must have misunderstood your point six.

There are lots of rumours going aroundcon twitter etc that there is a d notice in place

That originated from skwawkbox iirc & was circulated quickly around SM by the far left lot, until it became 'true'.

I don't think debris is the reason at all. I think the body bags can be seen from the trains, going by what I have read someone saw them from the train, so obviously the police and fire service don't want pictures of that scene to come out.

They also said they'd had to stop searching for a while to stabilise (paraphrasing) so it's possible that as they explored more parts of the building they discovered bits which were less stable than expected. It's not exactly a situation anyone has significant experience of - how a specific burnt out 24 storey building behaves. They will be adjusting their approach as they learn more.

I don't think there's anything sinister about stopping the trains.

But surely if body bags can be seen from the railway line, they can also be seen from other places. It's a built-up area.